daggers Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 QUOTE "the vicar would not be able to refuse to marry them whatever he thought. " What about the legal requirement for banns or a licence? I expected a telegram or hand delivery from an archbishop at any moment. Also, as patron of the living, the earl could not sack the vicar, but could make life unpleasant for him. Maggie Smith had clearly taken hints from the blessed J. Lumley in the way she leaned on the vicar. Does the earl wear his Sam Browne in bed? D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salesie Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 Mark, glad you mentioned the baby, kids certainly grew-up quickly in those days. Another (small) thing that is concerning me is why is the Lord of the Manor wearing his uniform constantly in the house even when reading the newspapers. An explanation would be appreciated as I am making every attempt to understand this televisual feast!. Norman Maybe he's afraid of being handed a white feather on a silver platter and/or he just fancies himself as an "Armchair-Colonel"? I adopted a wait and see attitude to this drama, in the hope that it would improve, it hasn't; too many story-lines, too many errors, too many false cliches, too many contrived and incongruous scenarios, not enough poetry but too much poetic licence, too many adverts, too much hype - so far! Cheers-salesie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 I almost wish I'd stuck with it after episode 1, except that by now Mrs B would probably have killed me. She hates nit-picking, and this sounds like a veritable paradise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 I am making every attempt to understand this televisual feast!. Norman Oh, come on Norman, show some bottle - admit that your now hooked!! Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salesie Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 I almost wish I'd stuck with it after episode 1, except that by now Mrs B would probably have killed me. She hates nit-picking, and this sounds like a veritable paradise. It's a nit-picker's dream, Steven, and these nits take very little picking. The only thing that's left, as far as I can see, is for Simon Cowell, Louis Walsh, Cheryl Cole and Danni Minogue (both in drag, of course) to appear as the court-martial panel sitting in judgement on a SAD case! And do you know, the way it's going, I'm not so sure that the producers won't oblige and hype it up as "Judgement X - The Return". Cheers-salesie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 But STILL no War Poetry! Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salesie Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 But STILL no War Poetry! Norman You seem to have a thing about War Poetry, Norman, but don't be too despondent; poetry is a personal art-form, and television drama is not the medium to do it justice. The poetry in drama such as this lies in it being a well-balanced production, with a drawing in of the viewer through an emotional attachment where said viewer cares deeply about what happens to the characters - as I said earlier, in my opinion this drama has not enough poetry but too much poetic licence. Cheers-salesie. PS. Don't take this post too seriously - it's my attempt at being sardonic, just like your bleating-on about the lack of War Poetry is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 A couple of people have remarked on the presence (in two scenes) of an RAMC man in the trenches and on both occasions when I spotted him I instinctively thought "that's not right". But then I realised I knew next to nothing about how the RAMC functioned during an attack. Presumably they kept well clear of the front line trenches to give the attackers room to go over the top, but then how did they deploy? Did they move forward behind the attackers to pick up the wounded? Or did they wait for the walking wounded to find they way back? Moonraker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 Last Sundays episode contains a total of 18 minutes of adverts. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 A couple of people have remarked on the presence (in two scenes) of an RAMC man in the trenches and on both occasions when I spotted him I instinctively thought "that's not right". But then I realised I knew next to nothing about how the RAMC functioned during an attack. Presumably they kept well clear of the front line trenches to give the attackers room to go over the top, but then how did they deploy? Did they move forward behind the attackers to pick up the wounded? Or did they wait for the walking wounded to find they way back? Moonraker Yes, some good questions. Perhaps it might get a better hearing on another thread? Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 I'm sure someone knows more about the RAMC than I do (Barbara!) but I felt that this was a problem from the first episode when Thomas was injured in a trench. As I understand it: Regimental stretcher-bearers bring in their own wounded from the battlefield to the Regimental Aid Post, or as near as they can get to it. The RAP is mobile during an attack, so could be difficult to pinpoint exactly. At the RAP there's a Regimental Medical Officer and some RAMC orderlies assisting. They will have been seconded from the relevant Field Ambulance. But they don't act as stretcher-bearers. RAMC stretcher-bearers are sent out at regular intervals from the Advanced Dressing Station (RAMC) responsible for that bit of the line. They make their way to the RAP and clear casualties rear-wards from there. So those RAMC stretcher-bearers will be in the vicinity of the trenches after the start of an action, but only to do a casualty clearing job, not to hang about having a fag, or similar. Once the casualty arrives at the ADS they are totally under the care of the RAMC. So there should be some RAMC orderlies (not stretcher-bearers) working at the RAP with the medical officer. But there should not be RAMC stretcher-bearers anywhere else in the trenches other than near/at the Regimental Aid Post. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 Thanks Sue, that's good enough for me. Moonraker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithfazzani Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 QUOTE "the vicar would not be able to refuse to marry them whatever he thought. " What about the legal requirement for banns or a licence? I expected a telegram or hand delivery from an archbishop at any moment. Also, as patron of the living, the earl could not sack the vicar, but could make life unpleasant for him. Maggie Smith had clearly taken hints from the blessed J. Lumley in the way she leaned on the vicar. Does the earl wear his Sam Browne in bed? D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 I'm sure someone knows more about the RAMC than I do (Barbara!) but I felt that this was a problem from the first episode when Thomas was injured in a trench. As I understand it: Regimental stretcher-bearers bring in their own wounded from the battlefield to the Regimental Aid Post, or as near as they can get to it. The RAP is mobile during an attack, so could be difficult to pinpoint exactly. At the RAP there's a Regimental Medical Officer and some RAMC orderlies assisting. They will have been seconded from the relevant Field Ambulance. But they don't act as stretcher-bearers. RAMC stretcher-bearers are sent out at regular intervals from the Advanced Dressing Station (RAMC) responsible for that bit of the line. They make their way to the RAP and clear casualties rear-wards from there. So those RAMC stretcher-bearers will be in the vicinity of the trenches after the start of an action, but only to do a casualty clearing job, not to hang about having a fag, or similar. Once the casualty arrives at the ADS they are totally under the care of the RAMC. So there should be some RAMC orderlies (not stretcher-bearers) working at the RAP with the medical officer. But there should not be RAMC stretcher-bearers anywhere else in the trenches other than near/at the Regimental Aid Post. Sue See what I mean? Scary. Sue, they really should have paid you lots of money to advise on the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 Sue, thank you for clarifying this matter - essentially, your description matches my understanding of things but I could not have put it so concisely and lucidly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 Presumably they kept well clear of the front line trenches to give the attackers room to go over the top Moonraker It was a matter of control, for example, an Infantry commander did not have any control over what the RAMC did and because there couldn’t be divided control in one area the R.A.M.C. did not function further forward than the RAPs. That's why there were Regimental Stretcher-Bearers and they did not function behind the RAPs. A RAP was positioned as close as possible to the Regimental Headquarters (so the MO could obtain early tactical information), and was central so there was easy access to it from any part of the front lines on which the regiment was engaged. When RAPs moved forward in an advance they put up flags so they could be easily found. One of the reasons why they went underground and/or used bomb-proof shelters was because the enemy could find them easily as well. After a big battle commenced and things became confused the situation did sometimes change. For example Medical Officers were suppose to stay at the RAPs but often went forward, and I have just recently read in a war diary about a group of Regimental Stretcher-Bearers who carried wounded all the way back to an ADS - can't remember why I'll have to try and find it and read it again. Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Macpherson Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 Downton Abbey second series started last night here in New Zealand Yippee. Going to have a catch up and watch the first series over again to put me back in sink. Wendy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 18 October , 2011 Share Posted 18 October , 2011 "RAMC stretcher-bearers are sent out at regular intervals from the Advanced Dressing Station (RAMC) responsible for that bit of the line. They make their way to the RAP and clear casualties rear-wards from there. So those RAMC stretcher-bearers will be in the vicinity of the trenches after the start of an action, but only to do a casualty clearing job, not to hang about having a fag, or similar." Hi Sue, What you describe is certainly the every day function of RAMC Stretcher Bearers. However, during major actions they often found themselves clearing wounded from front line trenches and No Man's Land; often on attachment to Infantry units. In heavy fighting the Regimental Stretcher Bearers were often unable to cope and took many casualties themselves. The RAMC Bearers took over the workload. The many gallantry awards won by RAMC SBs are testimony to the work they carried out, not just ferrying stretcher cases from RAP to ADS. Ipswich Old Contemptible RAMC veteran Harry Ellis won the MM for his actions during the first few days of the fighting on the Somme. Luckily for us he left a diary (written every day in two Field Message books) which I am trying to get into shape for publication. These are his entries for late June/early July 1916: 27th-30th June Left Vauchelles. 11th Field Ambulance went to Bertrancourt. 10th Field Ambulance went to the trenches. 1st July 1916 Heavy bombardment all morning. 11th, 12th and 10th Brigades take first three lines of German trenches then had to retire. Germans had made tunnels and came up behind them. The Seaforth’s fought like demons to get back. The 29th Division on the right and the Division on the left could make no advance. 2nd Heavy bombardment. Field Ambulance sub-division goes up to the trenches. What a day! Young Stevens of Ipswich killed. [NOT RAMC] 6 wounded, also General Prowse killed. 600 Germans captured at Ashuire, and several dead lying around. Worked all day in the trenches of the White City on the right of Lurgarie near Mailly. Gas shells sent over. Could not see for crying. [lachrymatory gas] Retired 11pm. 3rd Germans shell us as we came out. Glad to reach Mailly, and on to Bertrancourt. Dropped down and slept through heavy gunfire, on the right. ‘C’ section going up. Casualties 300 officers and 5,000 other ranks. 4th Left Bertrancourt on to Vauchelles. Then in October: 1st-7th October Left Daours, through Corbie. Passed through an unnamed place and left there on the 8th. 8th Passed batches of German prisoners on the way back from the trenches. Arrived at a large camp in a wood. 9th Left. Went as rearguard at Montauban. Villages are knocked down. The 11th FA are attached to regiments. Left, went to 10th Brigade HQ at Guillemont. Not a wall standing. Left with 8 men to the Royal Warwick regiment in the trenches. Went stretcher bearing. 10th Heavy shelling all day. Combles is just behind us on our left. 11th One German aeroplane and one of ours were brought down. Heavy bombardment on German trenches. 12th Still shelling the German trenches. R.Warwick’s regiment went over the top 3.10pm. Germans retire in disorder. The R.Warwick’s gain their objective. Germans giving themselves up had been under fire for three days and were very pleased when we dressed their wounds. Four of us stretcher bearers to retire. Division in reserve after having been in the trenches for three days and nights with no wash or shave, also no sleep. Reported to Guillemont to our C.O. and was sent down to Bernafay Wood and stopped the night. 13th Returned to FA at Montauban and stopped the night. 14th Rejoined the R.Warwick’s Regiment at Guillemont in the reserve trenches. 15th-16th Came out of reserve trenches and went down to a camp near Bernafay Wood. Seaforth’s go over the top. 17th-18th 29th Division relieved by 6th Division. 19th-20th Relieved from R.Warwick’s and returned to FA HQ. Then at Arras: 7th-10th April Several days of heavy firing. Fine and hot. Retired at 2.0pm. Went to Authie. Went up to Fampaux, from there to East Lancs Regiment, near Roeux, to aid post under a bridge. 11th Germans shell around the bridge. 9.30 barrage started. 4th Division goes over the top and capture the chemical works. Myself and another bearer go with them. Many German prisoners. 3.50, very busy all night. Germans send tear and gas shells. As Harry makes pretty clear here, and elsewhere in his diaries, he and other RAMC men often found themselves on attachment to infantry units who have taken a battering and have a shortage of Regimental Stretcher Bearers. Our "stray" Downton RAMC Bearer was deliberate - on attachment; just like Harry Ellis, MM and plenty of other RAMC Bearers. All the non-trench scenes in Downton were not our responsibility and I concur with everything you have said about them... Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 October , 2011 Share Posted 19 October , 2011 "Agreed - and, did anyone notice that the Officer and the batman had their respirator cases back to front when they were about to go "over the top"? Flaps to the front - all the "extras" had theirs worn correctly with flap facing the chest." - Squirrel Hi Squirrel, As I mentioned before, the main cast were dressed by the Costume Department and we looked after the Specialist Extras. I'm really pleased you noticed the difference! Frustratingly the cast were given WW2 MkVI Respirator bags although we did offer the right ones. Sadly the decision was out of our control. You win some, you lose some... ! Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 October , 2011 Share Posted 19 October , 2011 Moonraker - " I thought the shot of No Man's Land that preceded the Over The Top sequence was impressive. I'm not sure how they did this. CGI? Or did they borrow the shot from another production? I don't know how much this is done nowadays. Back in the 50s and 60s it was not uncommon, for example, for Western films to borrow footage to save the costs of hiring lots of extras for the battle scenes." Hi Moonraker, The shot was half-CGI. The rubble heap with the rats exists, as does the German trench in the foreground. At the bottom of the slope the British trenches were then extended and the landscape in the distance added in, with shellbursts. About half the picture is 'real'; the top half is CGI. "In today's Sunday Times' "Culture"... in its "Choice" column also notes the "30ft or so of unusually tidy trenches that the ITV budget has stretched to paying for". Actually we have several hundred feet of British and German trenches - and there was not much "tidy" about them when they were filming in March! Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 19 October , 2011 Share Posted 19 October , 2011 Harry makes pretty clear here, and elsewhere in his diaries, he and other RAMC men often found themselves on attachment to infantry units who have taken a battering and have a shortage of Regimental Stretcher Bearers. Our "stray" Downton RAMC Bearer was deliberate - on attachment; just like Harry Ellis, MM and plenty of other RAMC Bearers. Cheers, Taff I also have a copy of Harry Ellis’s dairy and others, and I have read loads of examples of RAMC Stretcher-Bearers being sent up to assist during heavy fighting. I’ve also read that they were sent up before a battle commenced because of the expected heavy casualties. My understanding though is that they were operating under the control of the RMO, who was stationed at the RAP, and when they went with the regiments they followed behind. Accuracies and inaccuracies do not bother me, after all this is just light hearted evening entertainment but the “stray” RAMC Bearer did make me laugh. I will certainly now be on the look out to see evidence that they were amongst the regiments just before they were about to go over. Cheers Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 19 October , 2011 Share Posted 19 October , 2011 "Light hearted"! anything but if the 272 comments and the 9,400 views are anything to go by. Good job its not "serious drama" for at this rate the forum would crash. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 19 October , 2011 Share Posted 19 October , 2011 to put me back in sink. Wendy Where women belong! (PLEASE, PLEASE, before anyone attacks me, that really was a joke ) Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 19 October , 2011 Share Posted 19 October , 2011 Chief Chum: "As I mentioned before, the main cast were dressed by the Costume Department and we looked after the Specialist Extras. I'm really pleased you noticed the difference! Frustratingly the cast were given WW2 MkVI Respirator bags although we did offer the right ones. Sadly the decision was out of our control. You win some, you lose some... !" I thought they were WW2 respirator bags.......just how hard do the Costume Dept have to work to get these things wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 19 October , 2011 Share Posted 19 October , 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now