FROGSMILE Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Drummer is a good alternative. Over the years Dr was often used for both: and of course Driver was an artillery RANK [an alternative to gunner]. ASC drivers attached to each infantry battalion for the heavy wagons seem to have always kept their rank as private except on War Estabs, when they were listed as Drivers ASC attached. Fantastic! I knew you would have the answer. I recall seeing Dr for drummer many times and I am convinced now that this is what the ID is most likely to be referring to. Doctors would undoubtedly have put RAMC as their unit and I am kicking myself for not remembering that ASC had Privates at that time and never Drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Rich: your newspaper evidence states that Herbert was in the 2/5th West Yorks, not 2 West Yorks. You have also agreed that he has no connection with the South Staffs C. Bishop with the same service number (for Blackblue - it's a service serial number, not a "regimental number" per se and several men could have the same number but in different regiments; Bishop was a peculiarly common name). Agreed that a Doctor would be commissioned and, therefore, not have a number. Drummer is interesting because it could signify a "boy soldier" who never got to serve overseas (again, just because 2 West Yorks went overseas, that doesn't mean that men of the battalion weren't left behind at the depot). I also wonder about the quality of the central engraving compared to the rim engraving. Even accounting for wear, the central engraving of "41166 and C.E." (Church of England) doesn't compare favourably with the rim. It seems cruder and thinner, as if added later by a less-skilled engraver. Did Dr. Herbert Bishop of the RAMC, garrison doctor for the 2 West York engrave it for himself but give it to brother Charles when? Not likely, as we've ruled out the C. Bishop 41166 as being the brother. Did Drummer Bishop, boy soldier 41166 with the 2 West Yorks, have it made for himself? Possibly. Was H. Bishop a driver with RA, RE or ASC? Seems unlikely. Labour Corps men who had been transferred due to fitness issues (wounds, etc.)often said they belonged to the battalion to which they might be attached but the records always showed Labour Corps. With RA or RE men, they would want to maintain that I.D. The most logical explanation, although not necessarily the right one, is that, for some reason, Drummer H. Bishop (41166 2 West Yorks) did not serve overseas. Cheers, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 So the answer is still that we have no idea? Now I am really getting confused! The newspaper research advises Herbert was 2/5th West Yorks...so actually the second line 5TH Battalion. If he was assigned to a TF battalion then I assume he would have been assigned a 4 digit (or later a 6 digit) number? So 41166 would likely not be a 2/5th Battalion number? As far as I am aware a soldier with a 5 digit number serving with 2nd West Yorks before they went OS in 1914 (and stayed at home as a boy Drummer) would have been quite peculiar. Again...can anyone enlighten us further on this? Perhaps with a bit of research on SDGW? If a man was left at depot then would he not have been serving with a Reserve Battalion (3rd or 4th)...not the 2nd Battalion? Service serial number? I have never heard that term before...but regimental number was commonly used. In the big scheme of things another Bishop who happened to have the same service number would also have been quite peculiar. Do not rule out the South Staffs man at this stage. Correct...on what we agree....it appears that H.Bishop as mentioned on the disc did not serve OS as 41166 H.Bishop with the 2nd West Yorks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 13 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Drummer is a good alternative. Over the years Dr was often used for both: and of course Driver was an artillery RANK [an alternative to gunner]. ASC drivers attached to each infantry battalion for the heavy wagons seem to have always kept their rank as private except on War Estabs, when they were listed as Drivers ASC attached. I posted this else where and someone else thought Drummer I have been asking the famil but no one seems to know Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 13 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2011 So the answer is still that we have no idea? Now I am really getting confused! The newspaper research advises Herbert was 2/5th West Yorks...so actually the second line 5TH Battalion. If he was assigned to a TF battalion then I assume he would have been assigned a 4 digit (or later a 6 digit) number? So 41166 would likely not be a 2/5th Battalion number? As far as I am aware a soldier with a 5 digit number serving with 2nd West Yorks before they went OS in 1914 (and stayed at home as a boy Drummer) would have been quite peculiar. Again...can anyone enlighten us further on this? Perhaps with a bit of research on SDGW? If a man was left at depot then would he not have been serving with a Reserve Battalion (3rd or 4th)...not the 2nd Battalion? Service serial number? I have never heard that term before...but regimental number was commonly used. In the big scheme of things another Bishop who happened to have the same service number would also have been quite peculiar. Do not rule out the South Staffs man at this stage. Correct...on what we agree....it appears that H.Bishop as mentioned on the disc did not serve OS as 41166 H.Bishop with the 2nd West Yorks!! Your confused? I thought this would have been a bit more easy than this . . . Sorry! I have been to herberts Grave in Weeton and he died in the 1970's so I guess SDGW would be of no help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 13 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2011 here is a close up, sorry the quality is not that good it is as clear as I could get. Rich well it didn't even zoom in flipping thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 W Yorks were just into 5 fig. nos. August 1914 .......... 10xxx, and the service battalions then piled in, using, and rapidly expanding, the series. Drummer does not imply boy soldier, and could be any age. In any case, units could and did take boys to war, it was specifically permitted for: drummers, buglers, trumpeters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 13 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2011 W Yorks were just into 5 fig. nos. August 1914 .......... 10xxx, and the service battalions then piled in, using, and rapidly expanding, the series. Drummer does not imply boy soldier, and could be any age. In any case, units could and did take boys to war, it was specifically permitted for: drummers, buglers, trumpeters. Herbert Bishop Birth 18 Sep 1886 in Arthington, Yorkshire, England, he would have been 28 in 1914. I found a record for a PTE Herbert Bishop W.York Reg. number 2589 date of entry in France 13.10.15 Wrong number though but all I could find Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Hello Rich Close up of the disc, it looks like a G after the 2, indicating 2nd Home service Garrison Battalion of the West Yorks. Your Lad did not see any over seas service. As a foot note the 411** series of numbers seem to be an influx of men from other Regiments and a few came from the RAMC & RFA. Regards as always Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Hi Rich, SDGW can be used to see what other men in the number series did as Kevin has outlined. Yes we can fairly certainly say that he didn't serve OS under that number and Regiment. This does not rule out the possibility that he served OS with another though and was likely issued another number after transfer. If he is the man with a 4 digit number it suggests he probably served with a TF battalion, which I believe originally allocated a series of numbers per each TF battalion. I think this would have been unlikely if he served OS with a West Yorks battalion (unless this was a reenlistment) as I think he probably would have retained his issued 5 digit West Yorks number 41166 regardless of which battalion he was assigned to? Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 13 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Is this clearer it is 2nd W.Yorks Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Hello Tim There is an Army Order [sorry not sure of the number] that did change some of the TF numbered Lads to New 5 series numbers. Regards Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Rich 1] The 41166 number of the West Yorks did not serve overseas. 2] He had the ID made up because he thought he was going to France, but did not get there? 3] He was in the 2nd Garrision Battalion ? 4] The number 41166 is pre Sept 1916, it will be about Mid August 1916. 5] Have seen Chaps discharged and re enlisted in the 4**** numbers, he may well have been TF and was dicharged and then re enlisted but was not fit to serve overseas, bring us back to 2nd Batt Garrison Battalion. Example of re enlistment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 13 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Rich 1] The 41166 number of the West Yorks did not serve overseas. 2] He had the ID made up because he thought he was going to France, but did not get there? 3] He was in the 2nd Garrision Battalion ? 4] The number 41166 is pre Sept 1916, it will be about Mid August 1916. 5] Have seen Chaps discharged and re enlisted in the 4**** numbers, he may well have been TF and was dicharged and then re enlisted but was not fit to serve overseas, bring us back to 2nd Batt Garrison Battalion. Example of re enlistment Thanks for the info, Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Thanks, Kevin. Your thought process was what I was trying to apply following in post #27. Grumpy: I was only offering "boy soldier" as a possible explanation for his not going overseas - not a conclusive explanation. Clearly, the only logical argument for no MIC is that Dr. H. Bishop, 41166, 2nd West Yorks did not serve overseas. There may be illogical arguments. And there may remain arguments as to the meaning of "Dr." Unless we can find life or service records for H.D. Bishop, we'll not know for sure. Cheers, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susanhemmings Posted 14 February , 2011 Share Posted 14 February , 2011 Sorry if someone else has already suggested it but would it be possible that H Bishop carried this round with him in memory of C Bishop (I wonder if the inititials "C.E" stood for Charles E) ? Maybe some sort of purchased remembrance piece? Just a thought albeit off the wall! Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 14 February , 2011 Share Posted 14 February , 2011 That's a constructive thought, Susan. "C.E." on an ID usually stood for Church of England but . . . .you never know. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susanhemmings Posted 14 February , 2011 Share Posted 14 February , 2011 I didn't even give Church of England a thought. I was going along the lines of Commemorated Evermore. Just goes to show how we overlook the obvious. Thanks Antony Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 14 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2011 Given the regimental number and name Charles on the Medal Index Card the man on the card and ID bracelet are the same man. The fact that 2nd West Yorks does not appear on his Medal Index Card may mean that he didn't serve overseas with them, but did serve with them. The Charles Bishop listed in CWGC register is likely another man. Name: BISHOP, CHARLES Initials: C Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own) Unit Text: 1st/5th Bn. Date of Death: 13/07/1915 Service No: 2576 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 21. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL Rgds Tim This is the bother of Herbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 14 February , 2011 Share Posted 14 February , 2011 Rich, I thought this man was the father? I meant he was not the Bishop named on the tag. Keep digging...I am sure you will come up with the answer. Harass the family...it worked for me. Do they have any photos? Is there a service record for any of the Bishop family? Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 15 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 15 February , 2011 Rich, I thought this man was the father? I meant he was not the Bishop named on the tag. Keep digging...I am sure you will come up with the answer. Harass the family...it worked for me. Do they have any photos? Is there a service record for any of the Bishop family? Rgds Tim Hey Tim All I know is there were 11 Bishop children including my great gran, four of whom were male. These were John W Bishop (1872 - ????), Charles Bishop (1878 - 1915), Herbert Doughty Bishop (1886 - 1975) and Abel Bishop (1894 - 1982) Charles had two sons, Maurice Dunn Bishop (1897 -1995) and Reginald Bishop (1899 - ????) I found an MIC for a Herbert Bishop in the West Yorks with the number 2589 and Charles number was 2576 (do you think the numbers would be this close if the brothers joined at the same time?) I found Records for Maurice Bishop also with the West Yorks under the number 2577 (also close to the others, is this why that article was written?) but then maurice moved to the R.F.C under the number 14063. All I know at the moment I am afraid. I never found anything for John W or for Abel, but I have been told Abel served under Major Wormald in the Yorkshire Hussars as his Batman. He then after the war went on to work for him on his farm at Scarborough. I contacted the farm in a hope that they may have some info but that did not. The chap I spoke to at the farm remembered Able from when he was a child (as Major Wormald was his grandfather) he also gave me the address of Abels daughter in surrey. I wrote to her a while ago but have not heard anything back so I fear she is no longer with us. My family know nothing of the Bishops really and this is unfortunately my last hope of finding out I think. I will just keep on looking. Rich Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 Seems to make sense that they would be Herbert and Maurice. Charles must have ended up overseas first...maybe because he was older. As you have advised he was in the 1/5th Battalion when he died and the others were serving at home with the 2/5th Battalion - essentially the second line Battalion of the 5th. They could well have all joined at the same time given the closeness of the numbers. Seeing the 2/5th did not go overseas until 1917 it is possible the boys were send out as reinforcements to the 1/5th at some stage before this. What records have you found? Do you have service papers? If you are looking at the Medal Index Cards it would be a good idea to also get the Medal Rolls as these should hopefully confirm the Battalion. Can you post details or copies? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 Medal card of Bishop, Reginald G Corps Regiment No Rank West Yorkshire Regiment 62031 Private Reginald perhaps? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 Medal card of Bishop, John Corps Regiment No Rank West Yorkshire Regiment 27599 Private Army Service Corps T-312665 Private or Medal card of Bishop, John Corps Regiment No Rank West Yorkshire Regiment 58743 Private John perhaps? Have you read through this as it gives some idea for research? http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/grandad.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 15 February , 2011 Share Posted 15 February , 2011 Thats definitely Maurice's records...they have him recorded as coming from Huby. Must have joined with Charles. I would be surprised of the other man 2589 is not Herbert. 14/10/1914- joined Harrowgate 1/5th Battalion, West Yorks 15/04/1915 - deployed to France (the day the 1/5th Battalion deployed) 14/07/1915 - Home to depot (appears his last Army unit was 2/5th West Yorks) 27/11/1915 - Discharged to join RFC 27/11/1919 - Transferred to Reserve (Class E). Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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