Pavster1980 Posted 12 February , 2011 Share Posted 12 February , 2011 Hey all Aquired this from my father not so long ago and could do with a little help. Does DR mean Doctor or Driver or something else? It reads DR.H. BIshop. 41166 C. E 2nd W.Yorks Thanks in advance Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 12 February , 2011 Share Posted 12 February , 2011 Could the R be an initial that was originaly missed but added later? Regards Paul. Would that fit as a relative? Must admit to not having heard of the title 'Great Grand Uncle'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 February , 2011 Share Posted 12 February , 2011 Could the R be an initial that was originaly missed but added later? Regards Paul. Would that fit as a relative? Must admit to not having heard of the title 'Great Grand Uncle'. I am not sure what the accepted abbreviation was for driver in WW1 and all soldiers below NCO rank in the infantry were known as 'Private' at that time, even in the Guards. I seem to recollect that there were some attached men from the ASC in each infantry battalion and I suppose it is possible that these were drivers. Perhaps Grumpy can cast some light on this. The term Grand Uncle is rarely heard nowadays, but it would be the brother of a Grand Father or Grand Mother, with Great added for another generation back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suggsy Posted 12 February , 2011 Share Posted 12 February , 2011 According to Ancestry, is this your man? Charles Bishop South Staffs regiment Machine gun corps 41166 also another number there of 136292 See image below: http://imageservice.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/image.x?f=getimage&dbid=1262&iid=30850_A000152-00457&mac=00634331071678843485yElJF3P3Ds4=&vx=0&vy=0&vw=1313&vh=1738&zp=100&sw=0&sh=0&qf=pq&rc= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 12 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2011 Hello all I have a Charles Bishop who was a releative but died with the West Yorkshires, he had a brother called Herbert Bishop. the badge says 2nd West Yorks Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 12 February , 2011 Share Posted 12 February , 2011 Just a point - as this appears to be a privately made identity disc, not an official issue and probably worn on a bracelet or strap, he could have whatever he wanted impressed or stamped on it. Probably a "Driver" in the battalion Transport Section? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 12 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2011 Just a point - as this appears to be a privately made identity disc, not an official issue and probably worn on a bracelet or strap, he could have whatever he wanted impressed or stamped on it. Probably a "Driver" in the battalion Transport Section? Ah I didn't know it was privately made, we had no I dea what it was Thanks Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 12 February , 2011 Share Posted 12 February , 2011 Trench Art? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 February , 2011 Share Posted 12 February , 2011 I agree that it is a privately made ID bracelet of common type. The issue versions were not highly thought of given that they were made from 'compressed fibre' that was swiftly rotted by decomposing body acids. Never slow to spot a business opportunity (and some say to play upon the fear of dieing unknown), many of the 'big stores' (Gamages, Army & Navy Stores, etc) opened a roaring trade in these commercial ID s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 12 February , 2011 Share Posted 12 February , 2011 Hello all I have a Charles Bishop who was a releative but died with the West Yorkshires, he had a brother called Herbert Bishop. the badge says 2nd West Yorks Rich Given the regimental number and name Charles on the Medal Index Card the man on the card and ID bracelet may be the same man. The fact that 2nd West Yorks does not appear on his Medal Index Card may mean that he didn't serve overseas with them, but did serve with them. Charles Bishop listed in CWGC register is likely another man. Name: BISHOP, CHARLES Initials: C Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own) Unit Text: 1st/5th Bn. Date of Death: 13/07/1915 Service No: 2576 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 21. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 12 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2011 Snippet from the Claro Times Huby Family's Record 3 Sons and One Grandson Father Who Died Like a True Gentleman “He died like a true English gentleman,” is an officer's tribute to a Huby private killed in action. He was Pte Charles Bishop, of the Harrogate Territorials (1st-5th West Yorkshires), and one was one of the three sons and one grandson of Mrs John Bishop, of Huby, all of whom volunteered their services. Their portraits appear in this issue. (** despite this comment in the piece, no photos were found of Charles**) Pte Bishop was killed as he was coming out of the trenches, the bullet severing the jugular vein. He was 38 years of age, and leaves a widow and 4 children. The high esteem in which Private Bishop was held by his comrades is shown in the letter to his widow from Lieut J C Walker, who says, - "I have refrained from writing to you until I thought your grief would have subsided a little. But I now wish to let you know of the high opinion we all had of your late husband. He was a grand example to my younger fellows, and a good soldier who died like a true English Gentleman. I much regret his loss and example, but feel sure you will feel happier when you know we all liked him so much, and feel his loss. Believe me, etc." Private Bishop's son - Maurice, aged 18 - is serving in the 2nd-5th West Yorkshires, and in the same regiment is his brother, Herbert, whilst another brother - Abel - is in the Yorkshire Hussars. Charles Bishop AS mentioned on CWGC is my Great Grans brother as is on my signature below. It is not an I.D. for him, or the other Charles 41166 that you have found. I believe it is for Herbert mentioned in this article, but I cannot find any records for him thus far Thanks Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 12 February , 2011 Share Posted 12 February , 2011 Have we got a wee disconnect here? The item is a privately-commissioned I.D. tag for either a Driver (usually "Dvr") or a Doctor H Bishop in the 2nd West Yorks - it's not for a Charles Bishop in the South Staffs or MGC. By itself, the service number is not definitive identification. I think you'll find the same number in the Royal Irish Rifles - as well, obviously, the South Staffs. There was an HH Bishop in the RAVC, a TH Bishop in the RAMC, and a Bishop 41168 in RIF. The only logical explanation is that H. Bishop didn't go overseas or that he was in ASC or RE or RA attached to 2 West Yorks (although that isn't really logical). Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 12 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2011 well there was a cap badge for the Roal Army Medical Corp in with this and some other bits, but not knowing who they are for doesn't help things, We thought the Cap badge was just a souvenir picked up long the way since they were all with the West Yorkshire. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 12 February , 2011 Share Posted 12 February , 2011 That's an other ranks / enlisted mans cap badge. A doctor would be an officer and have put his rank on the ID disk and probably RAMC. Good chance it would have been of higher quality,perhaps silver. Do you know if it was a family item, or perhaps an item bought by your dad due to the family name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 12 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2011 That's an other ranks / enlisted mans cap badge. A doctor would be an officer and have put his rank on the ID disk and probably RAMC. Good chance it would have been of higher quality,perhaps silver. Do you know if it was a family item, or perhaps an item bought by your dad due to the family name? as far as we are aware it has been passed down the family, we don't know much about that side of the family as there was the usual family fall out a few years back, my father has had these since he was in his teens. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Rich, I don't think there is any easy answer to this one I am afraid. Do you have any further details on your Herbert at all? What date was the article? The 2nd Battalion were overseas by November 1914, but the 2/5th Battalion did not go overseas until January 1917. I presume according to the article that the Herbert mentioned was Charles' son and serving with the 2/5th Battalion at the time of the article? No men named Herbert Bishop or H.Bishop are recorded in the Medal Index cards as seeing war service with the number 41166. If H.Booker served with the 2nd Battalion (as the ID tag suggests) then this number should be recorded on a MIC somewhere as the 2nd Battalion were in fact overseas for most of the war. He could not have served with them - unless he was overseas. Also if he was a 2/5th West Yorks man and serving with them in 1915 then should be not have been assigned a 4 digit number...later changed to a 6 digit number? How then was he able to record the 2nd Battalion as his unit with that particular regimental number? Granted transcription errors sometimes occur, but such a man does not appear to exist (pre war enlistment is a possibility but I doubt this given the 5 digit number which is likely to have been assigned to a war service reinforcement). As has been outlined this is a privately commissioned disc so it may not coincide exactly with what we see recorded in official records. I feel that another man named Bishop (regardless of the unit) having the very same regimental number as the man listed on the disc would be quite a coincidence. I know numbers were usually reissued when men transferred between units, however is it possible the H. Bishop listed on the tag may also have been known as Charles (the South Staffs, MGC man), perhaps a namesake of his father, and his South Staffs number is actually the one recorded on the disc? Has anyone actually viewed the original MIC for Charles (South Staffs) to confirm the transcription is correct? Was there any pattern for the issue of West Yorks regimental numbers per Battalion? I found it impossible to identify my great uncle until his service papers were digitised. His name was Ernest, but he went by Willie and he served in a regiment that I had never considered a possibility. There are a couple of Harrys, Henrys and Herberts listed as serving with the West Yorks in the MICs with different numbers so I guess the H.Booker listed on the disc could also be one of these men, but sporting a different number. As far as Dr goes I think Driver is the most likely explanation. Even when a man's rank was Private on the Regimental Transport of an infantry battalion he was often known as a Driver if he filled such an appointment. If the man was a Doctor it would be unlikely he would have had a regimental number listed as he would almost certainly have been commissioned. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 There are 2 x Maurice Bishops who served overseas: Medal card of Bishop, Maurice J Corps Regiment No Rank Machine Gun Corps 107987 Private Medal card of Bishop, Maurice T Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Engineers 2826 Driver Royal Engineers 519846 Driver and 1 x Abel Bishop: Medal card of Bishop, Abel Corps Regiment No Rank York and Lancaster Regiment 25090 Private Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 21475 Private Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 13 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2011 There are 2 x Maurice Bishops who served overseas: Medal card of Bishop, Maurice J Corps Regiment No Rank Machine Gun Corps 107987 Private Medal card of Bishop, Maurice T Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Engineers 2826 Driver Royal Engineers 519846 Driver and 1 x Abel Bishop: Medal card of Bishop, Abel Corps Regiment No Rank York and Lancaster Regiment 25090 Private Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 21475 Private Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 13 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2011 ha ha cocked that up there, Claro times 27th august 1915, Muarice was Charles son, he moved to the R.F.C. I have his records, Herbert was Charles Brother and so was Able.Able served as Batman to Major Wormald with the Yorkshire Hussars and worked for him after the war also. Maurice had a middle name, it was Dunn I also heard Herbert was some times known as Herbert Doughty Bishop, sorry just remembered that! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Interesting...there is actually a Herbert E who was RAMC...and later RAF...maybe they both went into the new RFC/RAF? Medal card of Bishop, Herbert E Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Army Medical Corps 31974 Private Royal Air Force 301568 Great you know something of them....did Maurice and Abel serve overseas? I see the 1/1st Yorkshire Hussars were later absorbed by the 9th West Yorks and the 3/1st by the 5th West Yorks. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Ha...this gets more and more complicated. I would keep trying to dig up more paperwork...perhaps look at Marriage Certificates etc. and anything else family may have. Medal card of Doughty, Herbert Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Engineers 49828 Pioneer Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 13 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Maurice Dunn Bishop born 12 Aug 1897. He lived in Dunkeswick and also huby and weeton, Yorkshire and as far as I am aware his Reg. number was 2577. From what I have found so far it looks like he had the 1914 - 15 Bronze star, British War Medal and Victory Medal but then under clasps on his MIC it mentions R.F.C Rolls. In what I can Find of his service records there is correspondence between R.A.F. records and Infantry records saying he was enlisted in the Royal Flying Corps Reg number 14063. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 I must be going cross eyed...I can't even find his Medal Index Card! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 13 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2011 I must be going cross eyed...I can't even find his Medal Index Card! I never found one, it is what was on the saervice records, will tr and get it up here Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 13 February , 2011 Share Posted 13 February , 2011 Drummer is a good alternative. Over the years Dr was often used for both: and of course Driver was an artillery RANK [an alternative to gunner]. ASC drivers attached to each infantry battalion for the heavy wagons seem to have always kept their rank as private except on War Estabs, when they were listed as Drivers ASC attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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