Somme gives up the body of another Anzac

[Seadog]

Dear Sir, Be very thankful that the person who discovered the soldier was in fact Dominique Zanardi. He is wholly devoted to Remembrance and shows great emotion and respect for all the war dead. He isn't interested in fleecing battlefield tourists.

I live on the Somme and I know quite a lot of French people who have built their houses over dead soldiers, and they weren't ashamed to tell me that either. They are the ones who should sicken you, not Dominique Zanardi.

Lots of inhabitants of the Somme regularly unearth bits of soldiers, including the young French teenagers who walk about with metal detectors. They aren't interested in bones -only things they can sell. They don't even inform the authorities of what they have found. Sadly a soldier's life wasn't worth much in WW1 and it frequently isn't worth anything today either.

If anybody was to unearth some of the soldiers I am trying to trace,; I would be grateful if it was Dominique who found them and not some fickle profiteer. They would therefore be treated with respect.

A final point, Dominique always informs the authorities when he finds a body. Enough said on the subject.

If you have evidence of houses being built over the human remains of dead soldiers and also of people using metal detectors to find battlefield artifacts and failing to inform the authorities when they uncover human remains, why are you not reporting this to the police?. As a resident of the area concerned surely you will be aware of what I believe are quite stringent laws covering the removal of battlefield objects and the finding of human remains, which may or may not be related to World War One. Are you actually saying that the practices that you mention in your post are being carried out with the full knowledge of the local people?

Regards

Norman

[Bardess]

Jeez Norman, we get the picture. Instead of pointing the finger at almost every other post how about constructing a blow by blow list of the way it should be done and work towards implementing that. Please do not shoot holes in any more posts

Perhaps a small committee might be put together?

[chrislock]

Norman, I live in Ypres and a few years ago my house underwent a full renovation.

In the process, munitions, bits of equipment and much .303 ammunition etc along with scattered human remains were discovered and removed. The point is this: The vast amount of un-recovered bodies ensure many properties have soldiers underneath them today so hardly surprising that in the hot areas of France, locals aknowledge and accept this. Speak to Frans Hoijtinck of the diggers up here in Ypres and he will no doubt inform you what he believes due to experience is most definately under everything built in and around Ypres today.

When men are discovered it then becomes a lottery what happens to them, removal with respect or obliteration and ignorance, Dominique acted swiftly and with respect.

To live over here and see what mostly happens when the euro controlled excavators begin to work on their date contracted works, well if I had a canvas sack on me, I guess through experience another sack of soldiers remains would today await burial within a military cemetery. Idealism is one thing, realism is another.

The rest of your email I will leave for others to comment on.

Chris.

[keithmroberts]

Norman

I am involved in various organisations in my local community, and many times I have heard quite senior police officers acknowledge that their resources mean that reports of minor crime (by their priorities), go without a response, or are followed up by a house call at a quiet time some days later. Live incidents where there is risk to the living will and should always come first. The rest get picked up as best they can. The result is that many minor offences are not reported because people know that there will not be a prompt response. Do any of us call the police every time we see a vehicle break the speed limit, or a cyclist ignore a stop sign? I suspect that a lone metal detector in a field may well attract a similar response in much of France and Belgium, let alone the UK.

I'm not saying that this is right, but that perhaps it is the reality.

Keith

[dfaulder]

If you have evidence of houses being built over the human remains of dead soldiers and also of people using metal detectors to find battlefield artifacts and failing to inform the authorities when they uncover human remains, why are you not reporting this to the police?. As a resident of the area concerned surely you will be aware of what I believe are quite stringent laws covering the removal of battlefield objects and the finding of human remains, which may or may not be related to World War One. Are you actually saying that the practices that you mention in your post are being carried out with the full knowledge of the local people?

Regards

Norman

Norman,

I think you are highlighting again the need for an appropriate structure to deal with the finding of remains. Where a law is not supported by appropriate structures to allow it to work effectively, it is often ignored.

I cannot think of an exact parallel for the UK, but would point possibly to the UK's anti-fox hunting legislation. Without going into the politics of that legislation, I think it is acknowledged that enforcement takes a huge amount of effort (from other possibly more important areas) and many local farmers do not feel that it offers an effective solution to a fox which is taking their lambs. The result is that there are "practices ... carried out with the full knowledge of the local people". (Badger protection and the prevention of bovine TB is possibnly another example of ineffective UK solutions to a problem.)

Pragmatically there has to be an effective solution for farmers and developers who plough up or excavate bones and other human-related artefacts of WW1 vintage. My limited understanding is that in some parts of France and Belgium (and other areas) it is almost impossible to deep plough, put in drainage trenches, or dig foundations without being at risk of finding such remains. I think "houses being built over the human remains of dead soldiers" is inevitable and we have to accept that.

Unless there is an effective solution (which I personally think has to mean British, Australian, etc. authorities having people available on the ground able to rapidly respond to a notification by French/Belgium authorities of WW1 remains - and the local authorities being able to swiftly determine that remains are of WW1 vintage), people will, when they "find a bone" push it to one side and take steps to avoid finding any more.

I suspect we would do the same. (How many of our developers when they find archaelogical remains, quietly hide them rather than report them and have the whole development stop?)

David

[Seadog]

Norman

I am involved in various organisations in my local community, and many times I have heard quite senior police officers acknowledge that their resources mean that reports of minor crime (by their priorities), go without a response, or are followed up by a house call at a quiet time some days later. Live incidents where there is risk to the living will and should always come first. The rest get picked up as best they can. The result is that many minor offences are not reported because people know that there will not be a prompt response. Do any of us call the police every time we see a vehicle break the speed limit, or a cyclist ignore a stop sign? I suspect that a lone metal detector in a field may well attract a similar response in much of France and Belgium, let alone the UK.

I'm not saying that this is right, but that perhaps it is the reality.

Keith

I understand Keith that this may be the reality of the situation at this time. However the question must be asked whether this is morally or legally acceptable. We will all be aware of the dire warnings that appear on this forum with regard to tourists finding and retaining battlefield artefacts in France and the severe penalties imposed on those with such objects in their possession. These laws I presume also include French citizens and the same penalties will apply. Why should we accept the frequently quoted instances of human remains being shoveled aside or scattered in the search for some memento of WW1. The areas where such practices go on are very rural and as I have already said in a previous post the culprits will be known to the locals. In fact on an earlier visit to the Somme one of those locals gave me the name of such a person who at that time was well known for scavenging the battlefield.

Norman

[phil andrade]

Members will be aware of the large numbers of soldiers remains found a few years ago when the battlefield near Boezinge in Flanders was developed as an industrial site. The figures involved are sobering.

British 91

French 33

German 83

Norman,

A comment on those figures : all the remains are identified according to nationality. Wouldn't there be remains that cannot be categorised thus i.e. of undetermined nationalty ?

Phil (PJA)

[Seadog]

Good point Phil, I regret that I am unable to put forward any facts with regard to the completely unknown. You will however have noticed a discrepancy between the figure for the British and the total of the burials in Cement House. There is a variance of 25 (66/91). The lesser figure was supplied by the CWGC and the other came from a source in Ypres. I had posted the figures to illustrate how in my opinion these men have been lost twice, once when they fell in the mud of Flanders then again when the CWGC ignored the circumstances of their recovery in both the visitor’s book and on the cemetery database.

Regards.

Norman

Edited to add:One more point on the subject of the 66 British. I was surprised that the CWGC interred these remains in separate graves when in my opinion a better method would have been a mass burial with an appropriate memorial giving details of the circumstances of their finding and recovery, this type of mass interment has to my knowledge happened before when such large numbers of the unknown have been found.

[Lou Bougias]

I have just spoken to a friend of both Mr. Dominique Zanardi and myself.

I greatly respect this person's judgement and counsel and I will gladly share what I have learnt.

The excavation was on council property and Mr. Zanardi was driving past and decided to stop and have a look.(as he has done many times before)

The first thing he noticed was the soldier's water bottle and Mr. Zanardi stopped the excavator.

After hopping in to the trench he saw the soldiers remains.

He immeadiately sent off the local farm boy to grab something to put everything in to, and, after a long run the boy came back with the hessian bag.(numerous muddy fields)

The first person that he actually got in contact with was the local Mayor, and he repeatedly tried to get in contact with various individuals, presumably the CWG and Australian embassy.

The journalist Paul Daley was visiting Ypres(I think), and Dominique had either seen and spoken to him or knew he was there.

He rung him and literally begged him to join him so that events can be documented by someone from Australia.

The trench was filling up with water quite quickly(low water table?)

Mr. Zanardi feared that if the remains were left in situ, they would either be washed away or removed.

The authoritities now have the soldiers remains.

The authorities went to the site this week and were able to retrieve more bones that Mr Zanardi had missed.

The find included 2 ANZAC badges and 1 rising sun badge.

There was a lot of shrapnel surrounding the body, and it is in no mans land of a battle that the Australians fought in.

There were no id disks or officers pips, but there are missing Australian soldiers from that area that were commissioned in the field only days before, and hence not wearing officer rank.

My friend who knows Dominique quite well, tells me that DZ is a man of honour, who would not dream of grave robbing, and he only makes his income from selling food, t-shirts and shrapnel.

I enquired why no one stood guard on the site till the authorities arrived, 1 or 2 days later, and was told the winter in France, and the circumstances , prevented that from happening.

Although I do not agree with the removal of remains without proper archaelogical process and examination, and a representative of the CWG or government being there, it seems that Mr. Zanardi has done the best he could under the circumstances, and for that, I, as an Australian thank him.

It seems to me that some sort of "honourary commitee" of expats and interested persons definately needs to be set up, perhaps with a patron and the blessing of the CWG, to at least stand guard over these finds, until the CWG, or relevant authorities arrive.

Lou Bougias.

[ianw]

Lou does well to mention the weather conditions that are often experienced on the Western Front and how they can hinder digging and recovery.

I remember being taken to view a recently revealed command post post near Ypres on the NE of the salient. It had rained and when we arrived we were presented with a lake with some railway sleepers playing pond yachyts in it! So much for the command post.

This debate raises passions but we ought to keep calm and be very mindful of the practicalities of he situation out there.

[Peter and Ellen]

Hi Norman,

Yes I am still out here, and I have no intention of getting into a debate.

Members,

I now have leads, thanks to members of the Forum, on some professional archeologists, one of which I will approach as soon as I return to France. I will be very happy to provide them with the information I have and leave it to them.

Therefore, fully official and by competent people. Can't ask for more.

I have read all of the posts in this thread and have considered the comments made, for and against.

Thanks, Peter

[Seadog]

Lou (Post 186), why are we still debating the credibility of Mr Zanardi or for that matter anyone else in France who is moved enough to arrange or to undertake the recovery of the human remains of WW1 soldiers found on the battlefields. From my point of view the morals and the credibility of these people is not in question but the whole system surrounding these finds and their ultimate burial in a proper grave within a war cemetery is. Added to that we have the fact that what I assume are local people searching the battlefields using metal detectors in order to find some military artefacts and by doing so it is possible that some unscrupulous individuals will in the course of the searching uncover human remains which they then ignore and rebury.

I understand that this practice is in fact illegal in France and severe penalties are applied to those found undertaking such nefarious activities. If the law is not being applied in these cases the why not? The fact remains that when we look at the whole question of the recovery of the dead in France then a proper can of worms is opened and nobody including the authorities are prepared to accept that change is needed to restore our faith and confidence that our countrymen are accorded the professional, respectful and dignified treatment that they deserve and that exhumations are undertaken with the primary aim of ensuring that where possible the dead can be identified.

Regards

Norman

[Bardess]

Here we go again! 189 posts and round and round we go.

Is it worth nominating a day for like-minded people to get together for a chat? Can we get this thing off the ground?

[Seadog]

Diane, yes we seem to go around and around but this is just the latest thread where the question of the exhumation and treatment of the dead has arisen. Other threads have culminated in letters to the authorities here in the UK and the only positive result so far is that the CWGC have agreed to report any upcoming burials of the found on their web site prior to such events taking place. You may think that this is a small victory until you consider that until that concession to commonsense the interments were not reported and nobody was any the wiser. My purpose in pressing the points regarding the situation in France is because we are lucky to have members resident in the battlefield areas and the hope is that they will take on board some of the points of discussion here and may be motivated to act on those that they can change for the better. Do not forget that there are 15 wooden boxes containing the remains of individual British soldiers stored in a room by the CWGC which have been awaiting investigation as to their identity from November 2009 and then a decent burial. This is the reality of the present situation.

Regards

Norman

[Bardess]

Quiet all of a sudden. If no-one will stand and be counted then what is the point? We all know what we would like to happen but, when it comes down to it, international decisions will have to be made. Has anyone even approached the authorities?

EDIT: We seem to have posted at the same time.

Even though members live in France/Belgium, unless the Government in those countries are aware of this ridiculous situation then discussions on this Forum is as far as it will go.

Do we care enough to stand and be counted?

[Seadog]

To your question Diane Yes we do!, I note that you mention Belgium in the case of which I do believe that matters have improved there and a more formal and enforceable set of procedures are presently in being following concerns surrounding the seemingly ad-hoc excavations which were occurring at the time. I stress that this remark of mine is in no way directed at those in Belgium who prior to the new legislation provided at their own expense both the hard work and expertise required to ensure that the dead when found were treated in a proper and respectful manner.

Norman

[Bardess]

OK, so, as I'm not in the UK, what can members of this Forum do to bring about the change in legislation?

If a reasonable argument can be forwarded to the officials in a polite, yet sufficiently persuasive manner; copy in the British Consulate in France and CWGC, perhaps this will open channels and move it in the right direction.

A draft letter on this thread listing our concerns would be a good start IMO

[Seadog]

Dianne I think that your proposal is an excellent idea. I also believe that running alongside this and complimentary to it is the pressure that our friends in France can bring to bear in an effort to improve the situation. The more that I think about it then the more I am convinced that such an approach would work and quite properly involve those who actually live on and work the land over which the horror of the Great War passed. I may be wrong but I think that a pivotal role in this can be played by the local Mayor who is fully aware of the situations which happen in his/her area of jurisdiction.

The Mayor could formally licence those individuals or groups who are willing to provide their expertise and efforts in exhuming the fallen when they are found. It is not such a leap to then have available to the mayor specific expertise provided by a local/regional archeologist when the occasion arises. I would also like to see the local people act as guardians of the heritage of the Great War and to report those who would abuse such heritage by illegally searching for artifacts and such people brought to book. Finally it would be good to have a system where the discovery and exhumation of the dead can be properly reported and made available to the wider public. Perhaps our friends in France can comment on these proposals.

Regards

Norman

[Bardess]

Good idea to copy in the Mayor/ess. Instead of cluttering up this thread why not start another in which ideas can be posted and a complete list made of the ideal way in which future finds will be dealt with. I will have to leave it with you as there is only 5 1/2 hours before my alarm goes off.

Thank you

[apple]

Dear Sir, Be very thankful that the person who discovered the soldier was in fact Dominique Zanardi. He is wholly devoted to Remembrance and shows great emotion and respect for all the war dead.

Well said Marienkäfer and well done Monsieur(Signor???) Zanardi

[ph0ebus]

So, nearly 200 posts in, it seems clear we are facing a resource issue for the authorities, laws in need of strengthening and a political base that needs to be motivated to effect the above. I would suggest writing your elected officials en masse to make clear your feeling on the above as a voter. Keep the pressure on until the changes you seek happen. I do this in part for a living and I am here to tell you it works.

Perhaps someone might take up the task of drafting a letter that can be used by forum members as the initial salvo? It won't necessarily even cost you anything as many elected officials have email these days. I would also recommend all the letters be sent on the same day, as this shows the officials you are serious, part of a larger group and organized. You might even consider call-in days as a part of your effort.

If people are interested in the above and would like more ideas and help from this side of the pond just let me know.

Thanks,

Daniel

[Torrey McLean]

I have just spoken to a friend of both Mr. Dominique Zanardi and myself.

I greatly respect this person's judgement and counsel and I will gladly share what I have learnt.

The excavation was on council property and Mr. Zanardi was driving past and decided to stop and have a look.(as he has done many times before)

The first thing he noticed was the soldier's water bottle and Mr. Zanardi stopped the excavator.

After hopping in to the trench he saw the soldiers remains.

He immeadiately sent off the local farm boy to grab something to put everything in to, and, after a long run the boy came back with the hessian bag.(numerous muddy fields)

The first person that he actually got in contact with was the local Mayor, and he repeatedly tried to get in contact with various individuals, presumably the CWG and Australian embassy.

The journalist Paul Daley was visiting Ypres(I think), and Dominique had either seen and spoken to him or knew he was there.

He rung him and literally begged him to join him so that events can be documented by someone from Australia.

The trench was filling up with water quite quickly(low water table?)

Mr. Zanardi feared that if the remains were left in situ, they would either be washed away or removed.

The authoritities now have the soldiers remains.

The authorities went to the site this week and were able to retrieve more bones that Mr Zanardi had missed.

The find included 2 ANZAC badges and 1 rising sun badge.

There was a lot of shrapnel surrounding the body, and it is in no mans land of a battle that the Australians fought in.

There were no id disks or officers pips, but there are missing Australian soldiers from that area that were commissioned in the field only days before, and hence not wearing officer rank.

My friend who knows Dominique quite well, tells me that DZ is a man of honour, who would not dream of grave robbing, and he only makes his income from selling food, t-shirts and shrapnel.

I enquired why no one stood guard on the site till the authorities arrived, 1 or 2 days later, and was told the winter in France, and the circumstances , prevented that from happening.

Although I do not agree with the removal of remains without proper archaelogical process and examination, and a representative of the CWG or government being there, it seems that Mr. Zanardi has done the best he could under the circumstances, and for that, I, as an Australian thank him.

It seems to me that some sort of "honourary commitee" of expats and interested persons definately needs to be set up, perhaps with a patron and the blessing of the CWG, to at least stand guard over these finds, until the CWG, or relevant authorities arrive.

Lou Bougias.

Well said! I wish to add my thanks to Domique Zanardi, as well as to Paul Daley and the others involved in this situation for having acted quickly and responsibly to ensure that the remains of this unknown soldier were not scattered by the excavator but were recovered. Because of M. Zandardi's actions, the remains of this soldier eventually will be placed in an appropriate cemetery, hopefully the Australian cemetery at Pozieres where this man's comrades probably rest. Given the situation, I do not see how M. Zandardi could have behaved better. Frankly, I was appalled at the vehemence of some of the previous posts, which in my opinion were totally unfair given the conditions on the ground and the existing (and non-existent) administrative systems. I had heard that some farmers on battlefields routinely cover up human remains that they unearth for the simple reason that the bureaucratic "hassle" is not worth the effort of turning in remains, and now I better understand why. Torrey McLean

[andrew pugh]

Hi Seadog.

Take a walk inside Mametz Wood, and you can see "lots" of shallow holes dug by people with metal detectors.It still goes on mate believe me.

Regards Andy.

[peterhogg]

Regardless of how upsetting the status quo may be to some, the situation has to be considered in what may seem a rather harsh but nevertheless practical light.

It is a fact that any initiative to crack down on grave-robbing or desecration requires a dedicated increase in enforcement and prosecution resources, either officially or as an internal diversion of current resources. Without a real prospect of legal retribution there will be no effective deterrent to the activity decried. That means money and resources being taken from one sector and put in another. That's the reality. At the boots on the ground level, that means police officers will be obliged to give this work a priority at the expense of other criminal investigations. It is unrealistic to expect that the investigation of on-going crimes must be put on hold in order to give the preservation or century-old remains a priority. Sorry.

Using the Somme as an example (An area with which i am much more familiar than Ypres) the region may seem like a sleepy hollow but it nevertheless contains or is near to several large cities or communities. There is a wide range of local crimes that simply must be given a higher priority than metal detectors and traffickers in Great War booty. In addition, police units are greatly involved in the investigation of organized crime groups whose tentacles do extend to smaller cities like Amiens and Albert. These offences include cocaine and heroin trafficking and money-laundering. And there are the wide and often sordid types of crimes that are committed in every community, big or small.

To suggest the police and prosecutorial officials should do more in light of what they reasonably perceive are higher priorities is simply not fair nor realistic.

Likewise to blame the local French people for not doing enough or turning a blind eye is likewise unfair. We have examples on this forum and from our own experiences meeting people in the Somme that there is no shortage of responsible and dedicated people interested in preserving history and showing respect for the dead. To suggest that locals should be more vigilant in reporting incidents to the police, even if only based on suspicion or hearsay is a bit naive. These locals have to continue to live in their communities and life can be very difficult if one is seen, by some criminal profiteers as an informant. If someone living in the UK knows of a crime, then by all means report it, but don't leave that moral responsibility solely on the shoulders of average citizens who are not tourists to the Somme.

Please do not interpret my comments as an attack or a criticism. I share and respect the concern forum members have for the preservation of remains and I empathize with the feelings expressed here. I agree with you, but know likewise that we must face some harsh realities due to the passage of so much time and the pressing needs of the present. best wishes to all of you.

[Seadog]

Certainly a point of view Connor, well here is another very basic point of view. Is it not a fact that the British and Commonwealth soldiers gave their lives and a substantial number still lay under the soil of France due to the horrific struggle to remove the invader from those very lands and to restore freedom to the French people. So when you talk in your post about “Moral responsibility” do you not think that the inheritors of that same land have a moral responsibility to do their utmost in order that the human remains of these soldiers are not treated in a disrespectful manner and that any exhumation should be carried out in the most professional and detailed way as possible?.

Regards

Norman