Somme gives up the body of another Anzac

[ianw]

Even if it means the CWG paying the farmer/contractor for their "downtime".

!!! - if so, how tempting it would be for every tractor breakdown in Flanders to coincide fortunately with the discovery of remains. This is in no way anti-French or Belgian, it's just human nature. Similarly if more stringent regulations were introduced on the treatment of remains, they would, as Sue suggests, just "not be found" in the first place. So this might well be counter-productive.

After nearly a century , our men are both literally and metaphorically part of the landscape out there. There is a continual education process going on as we keep visiting the battlesfields, engaging with the locals, buying their good and services (as in the case of Dominique)and thereby enlisting their support. That support has manifested itself in Pozieres.

A higher profile and more presence from the CWGC would also certainly help - but these are times of financial cut-backs. Perhaps we need to look to our own resources and mobilise more fully the increasing numbers of ex-pats out there often with an interest in the Great War. I know that many of these folk are already active in their locales doing great work - this includes Aussies a very long way from home - but very much closer to the important heritage of Australia in Flanders that I know they cherish.

[Seadog]

Every time the dead are found on the battlefields we will discuss the same points of concern, the same degrees of speculation and the general feeling that certainly with those finds made in France that the whole system and procedure requires urgent review with the aim of restoring some degree of credibility and confidence to the finding, exhumation, removal, attempted identification and reporting of the discovery of the dead of WW1. Let me just add one more improvement that in my view requires consideration. Members will be aware of the large numbers of soldiers remains found a few years ago when the battlefield near Boezinge in Flanders was developed as an industrial site. The figures involved are sobering.

British 91

French 33

German 83

Of the British 66 are buried as unknowns in Cement House Cemetery as follows:-

Plot 1 Row H 5-16

Plot 2 Row AA 1-17

Plot 3 Row BB 1-17

Is there any record of this in the visitors book or on the CWGC cemetery database, unfortunately no. This applies to all those discovered as unknown and buried in the war cemeteries. By not recording the fact that the soldiers were found in a particular area and in a specific year is in my opinion a serious oversight and one that can and should be rectified by the CWGC so that the information is available to the public.

Regards

Norman

[dfaulder]

>><<

After nearly a century , our men are both literally and metaphorically part of the landscape out there. There is a continual education process going on as we keep visiting the battlesfields, engaging with the locals, buying their good and services (as in the case of Dominique)and thereby enlisting their support. That support has manifested itself in Pozieres.

A higher profile and more presence from the CWGC would also certainly help - but these are times of financial cut-backs. Perhaps we need to look to our own resources and mobilise more fully the increasing numbers of ex-pats out there often with an interest in the Great War. I know that many of these folk are already active in their locales doing great work - this includes Aussies a very long way from home - but very much closer to the important heritage of Australia in Flanders that I know they cherish.

When trying to write internal (corporate) regulations, I always found it useful to consider, "how could I subvert this regulation to my own ends?". Previous posts have highlighted how someone finding remains could subvert proposed regulations to their own ends. I acknowledge this as part of human nature and its dislike of regulation and desire to provide for oneself and ones family - not as a statement of veneality of any particular group. I doubt that we can regulate local inhabitants into our desired ways - never minding that as outsiders it is not our business.

However, I would not be surprised if many farmers and developers do not really know what currently should happen - or what are the consequences of a "find". Without information / education, the level of uncertainty will encourage "the turning of a blind eye" (a good Nelsonian practice!). Coupled with this is a need for a rapid response; the land-owner will want remains removed as quickly as possible, and we (those interested in remembrance of the Great War) will want them removed before treasure-hunters nick them.

I some-how doubt that CWGC feel that it is their role - hence my interest in a US style JPAC (post 122) at the very least in a reactive role in respect of "found remains". Failing this, I wonder if there is a role for the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc. to appoint honourary consuls (from amongst ex-pats living in the region and with an interest in its Great War history), who can rapidly react liaising with landowners, local mayors etc. and act as reporting points (particularly "out of hours"). I doubt that large numbers are required - I think inter-Commonwealth co-operation is well established in this sort of area, so a network of half a dozen across the Somme to the Coast part of the Western Front could make a significant difference.

David

[ianw]

I wonder if there is a role for the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc. to appoint honourary consuls (from amongst ex-pats living in the region and with an interest in its Great War history), who can rapidly react liaising with landowners, local mayors etc. and act as reporting points (particularly "out of hours"). I doubt that large numbers are required - I think inter-Commonwealth co-operation is well established in this sort of area, so a network of half a dozen across the Somme to the Coast part of the Western Front could make a significant difference.

David

A good idea and I am sure that there would be volunteers for the role - perhaps some informal links along these lines alrady exist? It accords well with the "Big Society" ideas that Government are fond of at the moment - but one wonders if the CWGC/MOD would be too keen to have a "bunch of well meaning amateurs"/"honorary consuls" (choose your preference) poking about in their business.

"The Honorary Consul for the Australian Fallen" - has a good ring to it.

Ian

[Lou Bougias]

It isnt the CWG's business to look for the fallen, thats the underlying current of theis entire conversation.

[Peter and Ellen]

Hi Lou,

No, my information is that the CWGC cannot go out searching. They can only respond when there is a discovery.

I suspect that it may be something in their Charter. Perhaps a more knowledgable member would confirm this.

Peter

[horrocks]

I make no further comment on the immediate topic, nor would I wish to distract the thread, but I might try to offer another perspective. Sometimes one has to remind oneself to try contextualise these things, to remind ourselves that we inevitably view history, even quite recent history, refracted through the glass of today's attitudes, and all that has happened in the intervening years to develop those attitudes. The Victorians for example had a hugely different take on death when compared to ourselves - one only has to look at their monuments. Even our own attitude might be seen to have changed dramatically following the death of the late Princess of Wales in 1997, a matter which I would tentatively suggest even has bearing upon this debate, whether we would like to acknowledge it or not.

It is impossible for us to accurately place ourselves in the shoes of those who lived, and died, through the Great War. Even with the benefit of contemporary photographs, it is not possible for us to properly visualise these gently rolling slopes as they were then, particularly in the advanced stages of the battle. We now see extensive, tidy arable fields, tree-lined roads, villages, tractors, cars and trucks. Those faded black and white images seem to bear no relationship whatsoever to the places we see now. We cannot really even make the connection when we morph them together as in the marvellous Then & Now threads here on this forum. How must it have seemed to the soldiery who served there? - We read descriptions of the vast, almost featureless sea of churned grey-brown mud, of the corruption and of the putrefaction. We read of countless shattered, decomposing corpses interred and then repeatedly disinterred by shellfire, of bodies in trench sumps trodden over and over by the comings and goings of the still living, of bits of bodies on and within parapets, of corpses tossed into shell holes and roughly covered in vain attempts to ameliorate the stench. We read of living humanity utterly numbed to the sights, sounds and smells of sudden, violent death, and of death's inevitable consequences on the human fabric. We read these things, but still cannot properly understand. This was the Pozieres Ridge then.

How must it truly have seemed to the inhabitants who had to return to the devastated area and rebuild their lives and their livelihoods, the ordinary people who had to somehow, with primitive or more likely no machinery at all, transform this moonscape back into productive land and rebuild from nothing villages and homes that had stood since memory began, and been wiped completely from the face of the earth? I strongly suspect that they too would have rapidly developed, no came with, a numbness, for anyway they lived in a time when proximity to death was less of a stranger than it is to us now, and I should imagine that uppermost of their needs was that to reinstate their land and their homes. Underneath this belt of land there undoubtedly still lie many hundreds, no thousands, of bodies, and of bits of bodies. When one is chanced upon, as has been the case here, as civilised members of this modern society with all its contemporary conceptions and views, we must surely do all we can to ensure that the body is properly identified, for there will be living relatives, and that the remains are treated with due respect. But perhaps we should be wary should we fall into the trap of becoming too precious or dare I say, for it is a modern condition, mawkishly sentimental about it. I rather doubt that those who buried this man, one of countless namless thousands, were. Nor should we forget that those who have lived on this land, and have to make their living from it, might not always be expected to precisely share our own views, not least because they are unlikely to be strangers to these things. We must not forget that our inevitably emotional relationship with this terrible, hallowed soil is very different from theirs, a point which always comes home to me with a jolt as I pass below Vimy Ridge and remind myself that the autoroute upon which I am carelessly travelling was driven straight across similarly hallowed ground. I invariably shudder to think of the work of those bulldozers as they built this wretched road that we take so easily for granted as we speed to our holiday destinations.

[Seadog]

Regarding Post 159

Quote:

"Nor should we forget that those who have lived on this land, and have to make their living from it, might not always be expected to precisely share our own views, not least because they are unlikely to be strangers to these things".

But surely the reason why so many British and Commonwealth soldiers still lay under this soil was directly attributable to the struggle against the aggressor who invaded the said land in the first place, this is no accident why these soldiers died but in fighting for the freedom of people who had no connection with their own homelands whatsoever.

Quote:

"But perhaps we should be wary should we fall into the trap of becoming too precious or dare I say, for it is a modern condition, mawkishly sentimental about it".

No, all we are asking is for common decency and respect to be shown to those who gave their lives for us and in our name and that the latest techniques be used where suitable in order that these men are given the chance of a name and not "Known Unto God", nothing more and nothing less.

Regards

Norman

[dsms]

Toby

I think you have made a very concise, well considered and presented overview of the realities.

There is only a certain amount that can ever be realistically achieved and best efforts, with due care and diligence put into practice wherever possible.

We can ask and hope for no more and no less.

[horrocks]

Norman, you mustn't think that I disagree with you on either of the points you have drawn from my post, for what you say is entirely valid. I am merely attempting to set matters as I suspect, in reality, they are.

[Seadog]

Norman, you mustn't think that I disagree with you on either of the points you have drawn from my post, for what you say is entirely valid. I am merely attempting to set matters as I suspect, in reality, they are.

Perhaps I do not agree with your version of reality.

Norman

[Martin Brown]

Hi Folks,

I have a hope to be able to get suitably qualified archeologists interested in this type of work and I will start my discussions with them this year when we return to France. But, it will take time, not to mention, to find funding. I have a 1/2 to 3/4 acre field that I would like to get them into but, it is in a "hot" zone and will have quantities of unexploded munitions in it. I am not certain but I think the insurance on the munitions clearance officer at Fromelles was over GBP10,000 a day. Note: this is not a mass grave but a collection of undocumented burials in a clearly defined area.

In the meantime, we all struggle with the current disappointing process when these boys are found, singly or in small groups.

Regards, Peter

Interesting news.

Speaking as a professional archaeologist I do think the system for recovery could be improved. A call off contract with the local archaeologists would work well, even if a British JPAC-style operation is unfeasible.

More specifically, if you are talking to archaeologists about doing some work you need to sensure that they have the scientific backup for conservation and further research, as well as the expertise in digging. Our own success with Alan Mather at Plugstreet last year showed what can be done but underlined to me the need for the appropriate specialists.

Happy to help, off-board, if you would like.

Martin

[ianw]

Toby,

Thanks for taking the time to make your thoughtful post.

I certainly agree that try as we might, we will never be able to comprehend the ghastliness of the Great War - but it is this very ghastliness that I think drives the responsibilty for us to show gratitude for their sacrifice and treat the remains of the Fallen with respect when they are found. Yes, these events took place a long time ago but, in my case, it was my Grandfather and his brothers who fought - and in 2 cases fell. My mother's uncles are pretty close relatives: we are not talking about ancient history here.

I also have full respect for the local people to live a normal life, build their new infrastructure etc. In my opinion, if for example a cemetery has to be moved for an airport or road, this should be done with dignity accorded to the Fallen. It all comes down to respect.

As I have said in other posts, we have to be realistic and recognise that it is getting increasingly difficult to get anything out of Governments or quangos that involves additional cost to them. Self-help may be the way forward. There are people that care over there both local people and ex-pats. They are a resource that could be better used.

As per Martin Brown's post above, there may well also be expert archaeological help that can be called upon - perhaps both local and international.

[Seadog]

Martin (Post 164) thanks for contributing to this thread. I must say however that I am amazed at both the quote that you have included in your post and also the previous post on the subject by this member. Putting it bluntly what right has this person to excavate a site in France where he suspects that human remains can be found as well as unexploded ordinance? Is there some sort of completely different set of laws in France that would sanction such a thing? You will be aware that should this suggestion have occurred in the UK then it would have, to put mildly caused a sensation. What do you think can be achieved by the excavation of such an area as described in this persons posts and what possible bearing can such an excavation have on our understanding the conflict that we do not already know. Whilst you ponder these points perhaps you will also consider why the member has not responded to my quite reasonable questions in Post No.52. I am a little surprised that you would want to be involved with what seems to be an ill-considered and nebulous enterprise with no firm goals and no prospect of advancing our understanding whatsoever.

Norman

[horrocks]

Perhaps I do not agree with your version of reality.

Norman

OK Norman, and with respect, on the first of my points that you take up, you believe that the local inhabitants should precisely share our views, and you provide an incontrovertible reason why they should. Whether or not I agree that they should, I suspect that the reality is that often they don't.

On the second point, my words "we must surely do all we can to ensure that the body is properly identified, for there will be living relatives, and that the remains are treated with due respect.." and yours "all we are asking is for common decency and respect to be shown to those who gave their lives for us and in our name and that the latest techniques be used where suitable in order that these men are given the chance of a name.." are pretty much in accord.

[ph0ebus]

Perhaps it was lost in the back and forth in this thread, but what exactly does current French law dictate one must do (I.e., what are one's legal obligations) if one finds a body like the one found at the start of this thread, and how does what actually happened match up with the requirements set out in that law? If one finds a body and does not follow what the law requires, what are the penalties, if any?

Daniel

[Seadog]

Toby you are correct we do of course agree on the point about the treatment of the dead soldiers that are being found now and will continue to be found well into the future. I have not got the figure for France but a number of 50,000 still unrecovered bodies of British and Commonwealth WW1 soldiers in respect of Belgium has been supplied to me via the forum.

Regards

Norman

[horrocks]

It is a staggering, indeed almost incomprehensible figure, and is testament to the sustained and repeated violence that took place in such a comparitively small area. As I said, it is really quite impossible for us to properly grasp the sheer scale of the horror. I actually feel quite humbled being able to sit here in the comfort of my office and hold forth about something of which I can only ever know and comprehend so little.

[phil andrade]

The Victorians for example had a hugely different take on death when compared to ourselves - one only has to look at their monuments.

How far do you reckon that it was the Great War itself, with its industrialised, anonymous, multi million massacre, that changed that Victorian attitude ?

The extent to which the German dead were unrecovered is a matter we might reflect on.

Having lost the war, and suffered further humiliation through economic catastrophe, I wonder how far the German people retained the incentive to recover their missing dead...and, indeed, if the Franco- Belgian governments were sympathetic, let alone accommodating, to any requests in that regard. Bad enough - but then came the even greater disaster of WW2, and consequential division of the nation. Do you think that the German War Graves will be motivated, or sufficiently funded, to address the recovery of their missing dead from 1914-18 ?

I suspect that there are at least 300,000 - and maybe double that number - of unrecovered German dead from the Great War in France and Belgium.

Not my intention to divert the thread from the Australian, but it does lead to a train of thought, doesn't it ?

Phil (PJA)

[1st AIF]

West Australian battalions that fought at Mouquet Farm and Pozieres were 11th, 16th, 28th, 48th and 51st. Mind you I can't see how having "WA" stamped on the pistol holster necessarily means the wearer was West Australian. Surely the company that made the holster could be West Australian but had a contract to supply the Australian army in general? If the reports are true that a whistle was found with him then it is starting to point to him being an officer. This would narrow it down significantly.

I think the area should be further excavated if not already planned. The Zonnebeke 5 would have been the Zonnebeke 1 had not Johan been astute and realised that other bodies were buried where the first body was found. At Pozieres I am sure that if a number of men were killed, in a small area, ie.a single shell blast, and IF there was time then their comrades would have made some attempt to bury them communally.

Len

[Marienkäfer]

I personally do not believe that the Australian Embassy was "unavailable"on the weekened, or that the police could not secure the site until academics/professionals could be contacted and arrangements made.

I have just spoken to the relevant authorities in Canberra, and, as at 1800hrs on Monday 17/1/11(Melbourne Time) they, nor the CWG had officially been informed, nor do they know where the mortal remains of this soldier are!

It sickens me to think that this soldier is now in someone's hessian bag.

Dear Sir, Be very thankful that the person who discovered the soldier was in fact Dominique Zanardi. He is wholly devoted to Remembrance and shows great emotion and respect for all the war dead. He isn't interested in fleecing battlefield tourists.

I live on the Somme and I know quite a lot of French people who have built their houses over dead soldiers, and they weren't ashamed to tell me that either. They are the ones who should sicken you, not Dominique Zanardi.

Lots of inhabitants of the Somme regularly unearth bits of soldiers, including the young French teenagers who walk about with metal detectors. They aren't interested in bones -only things they can sell. They don't even inform the authorities of what they have found. Sadly a soldier's life wasn't worth much in WW1 and it frequently isn't worth anything today either.

If anybody was to unearth some of the soldiers I am trying to trace,; I would be grateful if it was Dominique who found them and not some fickle profiteer. They would therefore be treated with respect.

A final point, Dominique always informs the authorities when he finds a body. Enough said on the subject.

[peterhogg]

Dear Marienkafer,

Thank you for your post. Knowing Dominique, as i do, I agree wholeheartedly with your statements. Indeed, without his efforts this discovery would not even have been made.

peter

[Marienkäfer]

Regarding finds in France, i believe as has been previously posted here, the finder should report to the police, once satisfied they are not from a likely crime, they can be removed by any means and handed over, there is no law to state that a full archaeological survey and recovery has to be carried out. With expensive machinery and workers stopped from working, the chances are a blind eye may be turned in some cases and work continues!

I know most developers in the UK,just don't want to find any human remains, the delay in work is just to costly.

What about the gendarmerie in Albert, was that closed too?

Dear Sir, I went to the gendarmerie in Albert on Monday last at ten minutes to two (to give information about the burglary of which I am a victim). The iron grid was down over the door and it was clearly closed for lunch - a French habit between 12 and 2pm. I hope this answers your question.

[59165]

Dear Sir, I went to the gendarmerie in Albert on Monday last at ten minutes to two (to give information about the burglary of which I am a victim). The iron grid was down over the door and it was clearly closed for lunch - a French habit between 12 and 2pm. I hope this answers your question.

You should have phoned,if it was between 12 & 2.If not,& living there,why didn't you hang on 10 minutes?

Les horaires d'ouverture au public sont généralement :

- du lundi au samedi : 8H00 - 12H00 et 14H00 - 18H00

- les dimanches et jours fériés : 9H00 - 12H00 et 15H00 - 18H00

They have a lot of ground to cover

26 communes (177 km², 17 080 habitants) dépendent de la brigade d'Albert

& there aren't too many of them;

Effectif : 1 lieutenant, 17 Sous-officiers et 6 Gendarmes Adjoints Volontaires

when you figure out the shift system.Basically,1 for every 1000 people that live in the area.

If ever you have another problem,phone Péronne HQ.

[mca07100]

Well said!!! Marienkafer, Post 173 --Dominique Zinardi is wonderful passionate man who we have to thank for his efforts ,and his respect for our War dead. Some of the negative comments I have read on this thread absolutely sickens me. Arm Chair experts with nothing better to say or do. I feel ashamed that Dominique has been unfairly attacked, when he has done so much for this brave soldier he has found and treated with the utmost dignity given the situation.So unless you have something positive to say desist!!