Somme gives up the body of another Anzac

[KIRKY]

If I was in the area visiting the battlefields and I knew of a burial we would attend and there are quite a few ex pats living in France and Belgium with more than a passing interest in WW1.

Tony

[dfaulder]

So an unknown british soldier is found, it's publicised in the uk press, how many people in the uk are going to say,"i must travel to the burial".

Very few, if any - in most cases.

Several Points:

1. Just because "no one will go" is not a reason for not publicising the find.
2. If I was about to visit the Western Front and I saw that there was to be a burial, I could choose:
   1. to adjust my plans to "be there"
   2. adjust my plans to "not be there"

[*]In some cases, it is possible that people would travel to the funeral of an unknown.

In respect of point 3 above, I have mentioned this on another thread. My late father was acutely aware that his father still lies "out there somewhere near Vierstraat" and that identified remains were highly unlikely to be found. Towards the end of his life (from MND) he became even more concerned about this and wondered if he had in his life "done enough to honour his father". Suppose unidentified remains "of an officer of the York and Lancs" had been found near Vierstraat? I think my father might well have wanted to be taken out there to attend the burial (either in case "it was", or "as a proxy") - his failing health being the constraint. I think it may have helped him face his remaining days. He would have been very disturbed to discover if there had been a recent find and unpublicised burial.

Just because our media seems "uninterested" is no reason for the MOD to not bother putting out a four line press release. Press releases should be driven by how an organisation wishes to be seen, not by what will be consumed by the beast. I don't think "secret" (as in unpublicised) burials should be part of our society - except prior to the event where next of kin request. Even then I think there should be some form of announcement (after the event) put on the record (the location being withheld only where there is genuine concern about "creating a shrine for a monster" - not the case for the vast majority of War remains).

David

[willy]

If I was in the area visiting the battlefields and I knew of a burial we would attend and there are quite a few ex pats living in France and Belgium with more than a passing interest in WW1.

Tony

Point taken, but most of the ex pats with an interest in ww1 or ww2, will know from local gossip if and where a burial is going to take place.

I personally would also attend, and indeed have done so at burials both in France and Belgium,not because they were publicised but because i have an avid interest in both wars and through various contacts, and sources, i am kept informed.

[Seadog]

The problem is Willy (Post 227) that the preparations for such burials can and have caused concern and confusion to some of those visitors to the cemeteries prior to the actual interment. The forum has a thread where members thought that what was happening was an exhumation as there was not a notice placed within public view to inform visitors of the reason for the proceedings. On another occasion the remains of a British soldier identified only as belonging to the Gloucestershire Regiment was found and interred on the Somme, the Regiment was invited to attend the burial which a representative did but there was no information to the public whatsoever.

In this case had I been in the area I would have attended the ceremony to pay my respects for this is my local Regiment. There are many other instances of this which culminated in the CWGC agreeing to publish such upcoming interments on their web site so that the public could attend if they so desired. The problem was that in respect of the two photos that I have posted here and the third on the other thread the CWGC did publish the details as promised but at such short notice that people were unable to attend. The reason for this as given by the CWGC was that they had the details at short notice which sounds a little odd as they must have been planning the three separate interments for weeks and you will note that a standard bearer plus a few other people had turned up so they knew!.

Regards

Norman

[leighc]

Agree. I'm sure many pals would do the same. I was at Prowse Point at Plugstreet on 22 July last year for the burial of Pte Mather, 33rd Bn AIF and despite the Australian primacy of the event, I was touched by the number of non-Aussies among the scores of officials and hundreds of members of the public in attendance.

If I was in the area visiting the battlefields and I knew of a burial we would attend and there are quite a few ex pats living in France and Belgium with more than a passing interest in WW1.

Tony

[willy]

Agree. I'm sure many pals would do the same. I was at Prowse Point at Plugstreet on 22 July last year for the burial of Pte Mather, 33rd Bn AIF and despite the Australian primacy of the event, I was touched by the number of non-Aussies among the scores of officials and hundreds of members of the public in attendance.

Do you happen to know how the "hundreds of members of the public" knew of this burial?

[Seadog]

If I remember correctly the interment was reported on the CWGC "Events" part of their web site and was also well publicised as the discovery was brought about by the archeological excavations near Ploegsteert Wood. Regrettably the CWGC choose to delete all reports of such interments shortly after the event so it is not possible to see an any archived details. However it is fortunate that this interment was the subject of a press release and can still be viewed here.

CWGC Press Release

However this is not always the case and those that are "Known unto God" are rarely accorded this level of publicity.

Norman

[leighc]

As it was only 3 days after the ceremony at Fromelles the word got around quite quickly. The CWGC ran shuttle buses from Ploegsteert to the Prowse Point cemetery and they were very well patronised. The majority on the bus I was on were Brits.

Do you happen to know how the "hundreds of members of the public" knew of this burial?

[remy_of_62]

Hi,

Just to answer those who asks who would go to the burial if it was tell in the medias:

I know a story (told on the french forum 14 18), about the discovrey last year of a french soldier in the excavation of Mametz http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/forum-pages-histoire/Generalites/mametz-recherche-unique-sujet_10344_1.htm , what is also there http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7697251/Secret-terror-weapon-of-the-Somme-battle-discovered.html .

A woman told us on the forum that she asks all the authorities in France about where will the soldiers be buried? And many other people of the village would have like to know it, because they were interested in the excavation and wanted to go with the dead soldier to his last home. No one have answered them, the burial was made with noone, and the soldier is now somewhere in a cemetery.

What I want to show you are two things: the authorities once again, did not do all they can, and do not do good things! No DNA research (someone did asks the authorities many times because know her grand father was dead near there and never had an aswer) and no communication of the finding and of the burial.

The second thing I want to show is that many people were ready to go to the burial, and I am sure that it would have been the same if the body was an english one! The problem is that no one tells where will the body be buried and the authorities again did not did their job!

Yes it is a shame but no you can't tell no one will be interested in the burial of any heroe! And much more would be interested and be there if the medias did talk about it!

Rémy

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Interesting thread.

Dominique says that anybody who is interested in seeing the efforts being made to recover anything which may help identify this man should come to Le Tommy in the morning (Friday 11th); early'ish, for an onward trip to the site.

I'd forewarn though that some of the posters who clearly have no idea how things work here on the Somme may not get an entirely joyous welcome. I've been explaining some of the posts to Dominique and he is more than slightly put-out by some of it. He's trying his best, and he wasnt doing something then probably nobody would.

Greetings from Le Tommy, by the way

Tom

[trenchtrotter]

Tom,

Give my regards to Dom and thank him from me.

TT

[ph0ebus]

An interesting article in today's 'paper' about the recovery of American remains currently underway in Cambodia. The Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command seems to be a good model to emulate, IMHO.

JPAC Mission in Cambodia

The takeaway quote:

The idea is you live together, you work together, you die together, or you go home together. In that respect, if there is any possibility at all, you never, ever leave anybody behind

-Daniel

PS: crossposting in Recovering the Fallen thread

[willy]

Interesting thread.

Dominique says that anybody who is interested in seeing the efforts being made to recover anything which may help identify this man should come to Le Tommy in the morning (Friday 11th); early'ish, for an onward trip to the site.

I'd forewarn though that some of the posters who clearly have no idea how things work here on the Somme may not get an entirely joyous welcome. I've been explaining some of the posts to Dominique and he is more than slightly put-out by some of it. He's trying his best, and he wasnt doing something then probably nobody would.

Greetings from Le Tommy, by the way

Tom

Tom, please pass on thanks to both Dom and the mayor for their efforts on this, I can understand some of the concerns raised here, but possibly those who don't quite understand the French way, have learned a little more,they posted i believe because they care, I can't be there but will see Dom in March.Hopefully with some of the raw emotion previously expressed eventually a better system will be put in place to help those finding remains in the future and hopefully more may get id'd.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Has it stopped then ? – Please say its stopped !

I currently have very restricted access to the www since I was able to post on the 10th. I’ve just read through the whole topic and I think everything that can be said has been said, - often several times over. Dominique has recounted the whole affair to me and I think that essentially what he says happened is what has been reported as happening. He did what he did under the circumstances which prevail in this part of the world, with best intentions.

I had already typed some replies to specific statements made early during this thread, and I have now decided not to post most of them. There is nothing to be gained from stirring things up again. Suffice to say that the vast majority of the criticism which has been bandied about has been unjustified and ill-informed. It’s good to see that some have taken a very reasoned approach and have been supportive.

I do however feel obliged to point out the blindingly obvious, - all the high minded talk of a specialist team(s) being formed in F&F to deal with further discoveries, with legislation to ensure that finds are reported and any works in the vicinity stopped whilst forensic examinations are carried out, will result in one thing and one thing only. NOTHING, or as near to nothing as make no difference, would ever be reported!

Tom

[(nzef)]

I've started a new thread. But it should go here also.

A New Zealand soldier is to be buried on Wednesday 16th Feb at Caterpillar Valley Cemetery.

I hope all who can attend, do so.

Cheers

[ianw]

An interesting article in today's 'paper' about the recovery of American remains currently underway in Cambodia. The Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command seems to be a good model to emulate, IMHO.

JPAC Mission in Cambodia

The takeaway quote:

“The idea is you live together, you work together, you die together, or you go home together. In that respect, if there is any possibility at all, you never, ever leave anybody behind”

-Daniel

PS: crossposting in Recovering the Fallen thread

Interesting to note that the number of American missing in WW1, Korea and Vietnam is pretty similar , being in the region of 3 to 4 thousand in each case. Vietnam/Cambodia is understandably still very much active with JPAC teams often in attendance. I wonder when they were last active in France and Flanders either in respect of potential WW1 or WW2 casualties?

[Seadog]

As regards Post 242 and the burial of the NZ soldier the CWGC report this on their website together with a link to a PDF file giving the order of service. Unfortunately clicking on this link returns the message that the file is damaged or something like that. Perhaps someone else can try to download this and report here.

WARNING:

When I clicked on the PDF download my PC "Froze" and had to be rebooted.

Sad isnt it?.

Regards

Norman

[Blackblue]

Has it stopped then ? – Please say its stopped !

I currently have very restricted access to the www since I was able to post on the 10th. I’ve just read through the whole topic and I think everything that can be said has been said, - often several times over. Dominique has recounted the whole affair to me and I think that essentially what he says happened is what has been reported as happening. He did what he did under the circumstances which prevail in this part of the world, with best intentions.

I had already typed some replies to specific statements made early during this thread, and I have now decided not to post most of them. There is nothing to be gained from stirring things up again. Suffice to say that the vast majority of the criticism which has been bandied about has been unjustified and ill-informed. It’s good to see that some have taken a very reasoned approach and have been supportive.

I do however feel obliged to point out the blindingly obvious, - all the high minded talk of a specialist team(s) being formed in F&F to deal with further discoveries, with legislation to ensure that finds are reported and any works in the vicinity stopped whilst forensic examinations are carried out, will result in one thing and one thing only. NOTHING, or as near to nothing as make no difference, would ever be reported!

Tom

Tom,

At the risk of continuing to kick this bone around and around as Antony earlier suggested, as willy has highlighted there are many passionate observers who use this forum that are not as experienced in what realistically happens on the ground in France as others....I am certainly one of them.

The fact that a state of affairs exists where it is commonplace for private individuals (experienced well intentioned amateurs or otherwise) to recover remains without the support of (and deference to) the authorities is completely outrageous to many of us. Whilst I still question the journalist's actions, perhaps this has now served to illustrate to many how unsatisfactory the current situation really is.

What is clear is that things could be significantly improved regards the chance of successful identifications. How this can be achieved I personally don't know. Whether it requires specialist teams, improved laws, rewards, a widespread education program or other arrangements I don't know.....this is what is being discussed in another thread entitled Recovery of Found Remains.

I feel the thread in particular has served to better educate everyone in the realities, difficulties and agendas of the various stakeholders and I am sure your input would be valued there.

Rgds

Tim

[(nzef)]

As regards Post 242 and the burial of the NZ soldier the CWGC report this on their website together with a link to a PDF file giving the order of service. Unfortunately clicking on this link returns the message that the file is damaged or something like that. Perhaps someone else can try to download this and report here.

WARNING:

When I clicked on the PDF download my PC "Froze" and had to be rebooted.

Sad isnt it?.

Regards

Norman

Odd, works fine on my laptop and my wifes - call out the techies ;-)

[Seadog]

No still the same error message "The file is damaged and could not be repaired"all other PDFs working fine including newly downloaded ones.

CWGC Events

Norman

Edited to add:

All other CWGC PDFs downloading with no problem, information sheets etc.

[keithmroberts]

I have just been looking at one of the pdf's on the CWGC site that list the contents of their archive. This struck me as evidence that nothing is new:

158 WG 1294 Pt.1 Exhumation By IWGC - General File. 15 Nov. 1921 -

29 Dec. 1922

Main topics: instructions to Commission staff re exhumations or reburials of newly discovered

bodies after demobilisation of DGRE; refusal of DGRE to carry out concentrations of graves

requested of them; regulations governing approval for proposed exhumations; arrangements for

exhumations made in order to identify body; organisation fbr cundudng exhumation work by

the Commission; use of Commission gardeners for re.hurial work in emergencies; relations with

and payments to French authorities and contractors re exhumation and reburial; discussion of

procedure for approval and documentation of exhumations; discoveries and identitication of

bodies; monitoring of discovery of British bodies by reconstruction workers, and steps taken to

identify them.

Including:

Complaint from Australian Graves Service that insufiicient effort was being

made to identify exhumed bodies, 17 and 24 Oct. 1921.

Minute by Controller and Financial Adviser re Commission policy on

regrouping of graves within a cemetery, 20 Jan. 1922,

Letters complaining at official failure to identify bodies discovered during

reconstruction work in Somme area, 17 Mar., 3 Apr,, 23 May 1922.

I'm sure there is much more.

I'm not posting this to be negative, as I strongly support the view that the newly discovered remains should firstly be treated with proper respect, and that our government sholud commit resources to fund all reasonable steps to identify remains and hope that the efforts being made by david, Norman and others do achieve some improvement.

Keith

[Seadog]

PDF problem now solved by upgrading to the latest version.

Norman

[apple]

An interesting article in today's 'paper' about the recovery of American remains currently underway in Cambodia. The Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command seems to be a good model to emulate, IMHO.

JPAC Mission in Cambodia

Interesting to note that the number of American missing in WW1, Korea and Vietnam is pretty similar , being in the region of 3 to 4 thousand in each case. Vietnam/Cambodia is understandably still very much active with JPAC teams often in attendance. I wonder when they were last active in France and Flanders either in respect of potential WW1 or WW2 casualties?

Don't think this JPAC is a very good example. I know that it was only relatively recently that the last 5(???) Australian MIA in Vietnam were found. The Australian and Vietnamese governments came to an agreement to allow an official Australian mission into Vietnam to search for remains. In the case of all the Australian MIA, the Australian Defence Force had a pretty good idea, roughly, were they might be found. And, sure enough, after talking to locals and Vietnamese veterans all the remains of the missing were found. To say the least, the missing of the Great War is a different kettle of fish.

[Lou Bougias]

Don't think this JPAC is a very good example. I know that it was only relatively recently that the last 5(???) Australian MIA in Vietnam were found. The Australian and Vietnamese governments came to an agreement to allow an official Australian mission into Vietnam to search for remains. In the case of all the Australian MIA, the Australian Defence Force had a pretty good idea, roughly, were they might be found. And, sure enough, after talking to locals and Vietnamese veterans all the remains of the missing were found. To say the least, the missing of the Great War is a different kettle of fish.

Greetings from Melbourne.

The chaps in Vietnam were actually researched and found by "amateur sleuths".

It was these same sleuths who told the recovery team on site that they were looking in the wrong spot, and within minutes of the search commencing in the

"sleuths spot" the fallen were discovered.

As for the great war MIA's.....

[dfaulder]

Don't think this JPAC is a very good example. I know that it was only relatively recently that the last 5(???) Australian MIA in Vietnam were found. The Australian and Vietnamese governments came to an agreement to allow an official Australian mission into Vietnam to search for remains. In the case of all the Australian MIA, the Australian Defence Force had a pretty good idea, roughly, were they might be found. And, sure enough, after talking to locals and Vietnamese veterans all the remains of the missing were found. To say the least, the missing of the Great War is a different kettle of fish.

I think it depends on what aspect of JPAC's operation you are looking at:

• Prisoners or War and possible Living Missing in Action - not applicable.
• Continuing search for remains - possibly we may think that (with the possible exception of potential discovery of mass graves - such as Fromelles) those who are buried (deliberately or by the effects wind/water/shellfire/landslip) should not be searched out and disturbed.
• Recovery of found remains - we may normally agree that when remains are disturbed they should be properly recovered. This is the formal case on the Western Front, but not necessarily elsewhere (such as Discovery Of Remains At Gallipoli).
• Identification of Found remains - I think most on this forum would argue that once remains have been found, that we should use all currently available means of identification to try and put a name to the remains. That was the standard that people tried to apply post WW1; the fact that more technology is available should not be an excuse to reduce the standard.
• Proper burial of remains - although unlike the JPAC, we tend to bury near where they fell and it is only recent casualties that are brought home.

David