Auimfo Posted 18 January , 2011 Share Posted 18 January , 2011 Antony, The word 'tiresome' isn't exactly what I was implying. Your defence was justified and along with similar comments by others, fairly accepted by those you were trying to convince (e.g. post #35). I'm simply trying to say that we shouldn't become too bogged down with issues that are now generally agreed upon and instead concentrate our thoughts on how a similar situation may be avoided in the future. I certainly hope your family fared alright during the recent floods. I also live nearby and work as a Ranger at Ipswich which was pretty much devastated. I haven't seen much of home for the last week, having spent the vast majority of my time assisting with the cleanup and patrolling the outlying rural areas checking on occupants and stock. We even had to rescue a cow that was still standing on the roof of a house after the floodwaters had receded - a very odd situation that none of us had ever come across before!! Cheers, Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce Posted 18 January , 2011 Share Posted 18 January , 2011 Sorry Tim.....but I just have to ask.... How do you get a cow off a roof? Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 Sorry Tim.....but I just have to ask.... How do you get a cow off a roof? Bruce Simple...hire a mooving company. (grabs hat) -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Bougias Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 Getting back to the topic, The only solution to this is to establish a team, based in France, able to respond to any calls. It should be funded by the CWG and have the authority to exhume remains. At least 1 qualified archeologist should be in it, and the rest all qualified to do the job properly and honourably. Tim L, I hope you are ok. It seems to me that the QLD govt wasnt too organised or prepared, and you have alot of hard work in front of you. If you need any help, call me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 Bruce, With great difficulty and imagination. Eventually, some timber planks and a stock whip sufficed. Daniel, Love it!! Lou, That's certainly something along the lines of what I was thinking also. Can't completely blame the Govt. Concentrating all their efforts on the flooding up north, no one expected nor could predict the 8 metre inland tidal wave that suddenly swept through Toowoomba and the Lockyer Valley. Yes, there's many months/years of work to be done but it's very heartening to see the tens of thousands of volunteers registering to assist with the cleanup and rebuilding. Cheers, Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Bougias Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 8 metre tall wall of water???? Its amazing anyone survived at all........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 Bruce, With great difficulty and imagination. Eventually, some timber planks and a stock whip sufficed. Daniel, Love it!! Lou, That's certainly something along the lines of what I was thinking also. Can't completely blame the Govt. Concentrating all their efforts on the flooding up north, no one expected nor could predict the 8 metre inland tidal wave that suddenly swept through Toowoomba and the Lockyer Valley. Yes, there's many months/years of work to be done but it's very heartening to see the tens of thousands of volunteers registering to assist with the cleanup and rebuilding. Cheers, Tim L. Tim, My hat is off to you sir, and all those engaged in the recovery efforts there. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 That diversion was interesting, but can we end it now please and keep to the topic. Thank you Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 Apologies for straying Keith. Cheers, Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 Quite understandable that our Pals in Australia have other matters, in the form of a massive regional catastrophe, on their mind. Its worth a little digression to say again - Good luck folks. As regards the main meat of this thread, whilst an available officer to attend rapidly the discovery of any remains is desirable, I don't think that the political will currently exists to fund such an initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Bougias Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 Australia will perserevere, irrespective of the disaster,as for this particular issue, the political will hasn't been there since 1921. I do believe though, that in the next Parliament of Australia, things will be different! Fat fingers, perservere!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 I hope you may be right Lou and that it is an opportune time for Australia to become more mindful of this splendid part of her heritage. For example, if significantly more Diggers are found around Bullecourt, this might create some more momentum on top of that already created by Fromelles. If Australia ups the ante, it is possible that UK may be dragged along on her coat-tails. This would be a welcome development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 I think Australia has already done more than enough,indeed,I think that Australia has put the UK to shame. They do not need to up the ante.We do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Bougias Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 I think Australia has already done more than enough,indeed,I think that Australia has put the UK to shame. They do not need to up the ante.We do. Its not about putting anyone to shame Ian. Its about honouring the glorious dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 Not my post Lou - not sure if 59165's name is Ian though. Quite agree that all we want is the Fallen of whatever nationality to be treated with full respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 I always find these sort of threads slightly disturbing (my Grandfather is probably in the mud near Vierstraat, south of Ieper, much to the distress of my late father - born a few weeks after his father was Killed in Action). I am left wondering about a basic question: Who speaks for the fallen - or their descendents? There are I think two stakeholders in these issues: General Issues of respect for those who died serving our countries - which may indicate our future respect for those serving and dying today Issues relating to descendents. Immediate descendents probably have very real grief - I am sure my father did (I think it was infectious from his mother); but that generation has almost died out and it is not clear whether current (non-immediate) descendents actually have any "say" (I want to avoid the word "rights" - there are more important issues concerning human rights). The fallen obviously cannot give a mandate to any organisation, which makes the first part of my question problematic. Various organisations proport to speak for them, but I am not sure that there is a consensus. Looking at some of the possible organisations (from a UK centric point of view - I am even less familiar with non UK, so I hope the OP does not feel I am going off topic - I suspect the problem is universal). The Royal British Legion's objectives (per their website): The Royal British Legion safeguards the welfare, interests and memory of those who are serving or who have served in the Armed Forces. ... We help serving and ex-Service personnel and their families. ... We provide welfare services, campaign on a range of issues affecting Service people, are custodians of Remembrance, ... The Commonwealth War Graves Commission's objectives (per their website): ... the Commonwealth War Graves Commission pays tribute to the 1,700,000 men and women of the Commonwealth forces who died in the two world wars. ... ... the Commission has constructed 2,500 war cemeteries and plots, erecting headstones over graves and, in instances where the remains are missing, inscribing the names of the dead on permanent memorials. ... The Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre (JCCC) objectives include (per their website - my bullet pointing and underlining): The JCCC has a small team that answers enquires relating to individual military fatalities outside the recent past and, co-ordinates investigations following the discovery of human remains of personnel killed in the First and Second World Wars,. This fascinating work involves attempts to identify the casualty and trace their next of kin or descendants. We will then arrange an appropriate military funeral in the country concerned, if that is the wish of the family. From a UK point of view, only the JCCC has any objective relating to descendants of the fallen. But I fail to see any direct line of accountability (which to be fair may be difficult). So I guess it's down to lobbying my Member of Parliament. Post "the bankers crisis", I cannot see the UK parliament changing the current situation. Or are there other campaigning organisations? Are other countries in a better position? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew pugh Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 Good Evening All. Why dont the authorities /Departments from the Australian,Canadian,and British goverments collectivly find the finances / resources, and search and clear the battlefield hot spots where they know or strongly beleive to be large concentrations of human remains still unfound. Places just lick Pozieres and Bullcourt.Surely with the technology that is now availabe to detect these soldiers remains it could be done once and for all.Probably better than the great searches after the war, and less labour intensive.Just an opinion. Best Regards Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 David Post 118, yes there is a country that has a far superior system than any being discussed here and that is the USA. The organisation is known as The Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command (JPAC). MOTTO: "UNTIL THEY ARE HOME" JPAC Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 Would be a massive task Andy. Perhaps doing the same...but contracting an appropriate team to do the work when remains are discovered...and then the country to whom the man originally belonged then pays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 David Post 118, yes there is a country that has a far superior system than any being discussed here and that is the USA. The organisation is known as The Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command (JPAC). MOTTO: "UNTIL THEY ARE HOME" JPAC Norman Norman Thanks, let's add them to the list: The Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command (JPAC)'s objectives (per their website) are: The mission of the Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command (JPAC) is to achieve the fullest possible accounting of all Americans missing as a result of the nation's past conflicts. The highest priority of the organization is the return of any living Americans that remain prisoners of war. The core of JPAC's day-to-day operations involves investigating leads and recovering and identifying Americans who were killed in action but were never brought home. This process involves close coordination with other U.S. agencies involved in the POW/MIA issue, including the Defense POW/Missing Personnel Office, Department of State, the Joint Staff, U. S. Pacific Command, Defense Intelligence Agency, the Armed Forces Medical Examiner, and Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. JPAC routinely carries out technical negotiations and talks with representatives of foreign governments around the world in order to ensure positive in-country conditions are maintained or created for JPAC investigative and recovery operations wherever JPAC teams deploy in the world. (This is from just the start of a very comprehensive web page) Clearly a pro-active organisation like this is expensive ("JPAC’s operating budget for per year is approximately $48-50 million." ref). I wonder what a reactive organisation covering initially say found Allied WW1 WF Casualties would cost? I suspect that what-ever the figure, the "powers that be" will say it is too much "for so many bodies per year". But looking at the "cost per body" is the wrong approach. Whatever we do about WW1 casualties will in many ways be "symbolic" - of an ongoing commitment. Whilst arguably the primary demonstration of that commitment should be care for current bereaved and wounded, there has to be something more. Whilst we may not support particular conflicts and may not support the armed services in those conflicts, in the end we, through our (however inadequately) elected governments are sending individuals into danger and we have to show some form of ongoing commitment to them. An individual soldier (, ...) cannot measure whether he or she will be remembered in 20, 40, 80 years time, but he or she can look at whether we remember (and respect) those who were wounded or died, 20, 40 or 80 years ago. I guess it comes down to what respect is (or what lack of respect is). Personally, I think taking all steps to put a name to found remains, is central to respect of the individual. So what price, and should we as well as complaining/campaigning about specific cases (the sticking plaster) also be campaigning about sorting out out the root problem? Is the JPAC model a suitable root cause solution? David (Mods - please feel free to transfer to a new topic if I am straying too far!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter and Ellen Posted 20 January , 2011 Share Posted 20 January , 2011 Hi Folks, I have a hope to be able to get suitably qualified archeologists interested in this type of work and I will start my discussions with them this year when we return to France. But, it will take time, not to mention, to find funding. I have a 1/2 to 3/4 acre field that I would like to get them into but, it is in a "hot" zone and will have quantities of unexploded munitions in it. I am not certain but I think the insurance on the munitions clearance officer at Fromelles was over GBP10,000 a day. Note: this is not a mass grave but a collection of undocumented burials in a clearly defined area. In the meantime, we all struggle with the current disappointing process when these boys are found, singly or in small groups. Regards, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 20 January , 2011 Share Posted 20 January , 2011 Peter?Peter Norton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 20 January , 2011 Share Posted 20 January , 2011 Peter, PM Sent mate. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 20 January , 2011 Share Posted 20 January , 2011 Hi Folks, I have a hope to be able to get suitably qualified archeologists interested in this type of work and I will start my discussions with them this year when we return to France. But, it will take time, not to mention, to find funding. I have a 1/2 to 3/4 acre field that I would like to get them into but, it is in a "hot" zone and will have quantities of unexploded munitions in it. I am not certain but I think the insurance on the munitions clearance officer at Fromelles was over GBP10,000 a day. Note: this is not a mass grave but a collection of undocumented burials in a clearly defined area. In the meantime, we all struggle with the current disappointing process when these boys are found, singly or in small groups. Regards, Peter Sounds great, here is a snap of a dig in Flanders a few years ago done solely for a television programme. I will not post the one of the army boot with a foot still in it as it may prove to be a little tasteless dont you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st AIF Posted 20 January , 2011 Share Posted 20 January , 2011 This is a remarkable discovery and I hope that attention can go to identifying this man and or his role. Do we have a grid reference of where the bloke was found? Under what circumstances would a soldier have a pistol and a rifle and 8 Mills bombs? Or why would an officer have Mills bombs and a rifle? Or are there a few men in the vicinity? The Zonnebeke 5 when originally buried were "back filled" with battlefield debri. If he was an officer why were there no "pips" found? Does the indication that because the holster may be made in West Australia offer any indication that the soldier was West Australian - I would think not? Sounds more like a soldier going up to the front line or being killed during the attack. Are there any indications that he was buried by his comrades or simply buried by the shells? Did specialist bombers,runners or linesmen carry pistols? If it is a service watch to what rank where they normally issued? Regards, Len Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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