Looking for the real Fred Ovenell!

[centurion]

What I find interesting is that on 23 July 1918, the officer i/c Labour Corps records wrote to Mrs Pryke: "will you please state distinctly the following particulars of your husband to enable [us to] complete records - Benjamin Charles Pryke serving under the assumed na[me] of F Ovenel[l]. So they were onto him that early. "Fred" didn't apply for his SWB until 15 April 1919. Unfortunately the date appears to be 1916, but I can't help wondering if the note on his conduct sheet of "making a false statement to an NCO" was when it all started to unravel!

Date of what?

[Verrico2009]

Sorry - all over the place on my laptop - column headed "offence". Unfortunately it's in very poor nick with the top largely missing.

Edit - one reason for thinking there might be a link is that it immediately follows the note (dated [22.2?].18) about the trial being dispensed with and he's to continue serving in his present Corps, although I do appreciate there isn't necessarily any connection.

Edit 2 - I imagine you know this, Elaine, but the 9 year old Henry John is on the 1911 census with Annie's family - listed as nephew so presumably the head of household, Herbert William Tyler, is her brother.

[ElaineW]

Edit 2 - I imagine you know this, Elaine, but the 9 year old Henry John is on the 1911 census with Annie's family - listed as nephew so presumably the head of household, Herbert William Tyler, is her brother.

Yes, that's Annie brother and family.

Unfortunately we cannot find Annie, Fred or the daughter Violet on the 1911 census.

[centurion]

Unfortunately the date appears to be 1916, but I can't help wondering if the note on his conduct sheet of "making a false statement to an NCO" was when it all started to unravel!

One gets the impression the more is uncovered that Benjamin was never someone on whose veracity one could count. The same seems to be true of Annie. [Perhaps they had a grand daughter called Vicky Pollard ]

[ororkep]

I realise on #38 I made an error, so here is a revised list.

Front Row seated, looking at group photograph from Elaine and reading left to right:

1. WO medal recipient (confirm same man as photo from battiscombe #49 but with one less ribbon)

2. Lt H G Stevenson

3. Lt R D Foster; same man seated next to WO on photo from battiscombe #49 (probably Reginald Duncan who has a 'P'in old NA number references so no file held at NA, RFA & RGA)

4. My mistake (my apologies if it sent some members off on a tangent). NOT Lejuene so ignore but is Lt W B Roberts with wound stripe.

5. Cadet Fred Whoever?

6. 2/Lt Phillips J. L. (Initials from two sources but cannot find suitable candidate)

7. Lt G F Stearn (probably Geo Frank again with 'P'in old NA number references)

8. Unknown Sgt

9. Unknown Cadet

10. Unknown Sgt

Rgds

Paul

[Piorun]

A comparison of handwriting.

Signature of Fred Ovenell on his marriage to Annie Tyler

Handwriting on the postcard, which we believe was sent by the same Fred.

Elaine: for what it's worth;

1. it appears that the writing of "Fred" on the postcard is, apart from the 'F', closer to the "Fred" in False Fred's (Pryke's) signature that it is to the marriage signature (compare the 'r' and the 'd').

2. it appears that the writing of "Ovenell" on the marriage certificate is closer to the writing of False Fred's "Ovenell" than it is to the address of Mrs Ovenell on the p/c (more open more rounded).

3. there may be some doubt that the man who signed "Ovenell" on the marriage certificate also wrote "Ovenell" on the postcard, given that you would think that writing his own last name would be as much second nature to him as would be his signature. The "O" especially is so different.

I know this doesn't help with i.d. but it may add to the forensic examination of the evidential possibilities.

PS what happened to analysis of the high-res photo? I still believe the man beside Postcard Fred is wearing a Crown and Pip. Yours, Antony

[ElaineW]

Can I just say thank you to everyone who has tried to help us - I think we have reached a dead end at the moment.

I received the will of Henry Edgar Ovenell (Fred's father) yesterday - unfortunately Fred is not mentioned. Henry leaves his estate to his three daughters and a son in Canada.

I am still waiting for the divorce papers of Benjamin Charles Pryke and his wife Jenny Betts, to see if they hold any clues.

I think our next step is may be to approach the RA Museum research department to see if they can identify the soldier in the photo or, when I am next in the UK, I might even visit in person to see if I can uncover anything.

If we find out any more I'll let you all know.

Thanks again.

[RaySearching]

Hi

I have followed this thread with some intrest

all we have is a postcard addressed to Mrs Ovenell sent by somebody called Fred

and some Anecdotal evidence which assumes that the Postcard was sent by Fred Ovenell to his Mother

Anecdotal evidence which cannot be totaly relied on

There is the possibility that the Postcard was not Sent by the real Fred (Fred Ovenell )

or By the False Fred (Pryke) But a completly Different Fred A Friend or relative of the Ovenell's

who may or may not have been a RA officer Cadet

my opinion so far is that Most of the evidence on this thread points away

from The postcard being sent either by The real Fred Or False Fred ?

Regards Ray

[ElaineW]

They do say "never give up" After more than 3 years I am back with some more information.

For those that remember this thread I will recap quickly on what we were trying to find.

We believe that the photo in post #1 is that of Fred Ovenell, born 1881 in Oxford. On the other side of the picture is a postcard with a message which we think was sent to his parents in 1918 (sometime before 3rd June as postal rates went up to one penny on that date!). Postmark is Trowbridge. (postcard image is in post #6).

There is also a group photo (post #23) with the words Fred 1917 written on the back of the photo. Fred is sitting front centre (white band on cap).

From the comments on this forum it was thought the group photo could be 1 Officer Cadet School at Trowbridge, Royal Garrison Artillery. Research showed there was no "Frederick Ovenell" serving in the RGA at that time!!

We believe we have now discovered a new identity for Fred. It appears that Fred changed his name to Fred Walton. He married, presumably bigamously, on 16th December 1905 at the Register Office Holborn (whilst his wife Annie was in Hackney workhouse with their two children!). The marriage certificate for Fred shows his as age 23, bachelor, occ. Horolgist, with his father named as Henry Edgar Walton (deceased), cycle maker. This almost fits - his father was in fact Henry Edgar Ovenell, occ. cycle maker - and most certainly alive!

This appears to be Fred Walton and his wife May in the 1911 census:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911England&indiv=try&h=1793610

The information given in the 1911 census is again not as accurate as we would like as he had only been married to his second wife for 6 years at that point - although he did marry his first wife in 1901 and they did have two children, but we know one was definitely alive in 1911. Comparing the handwriting on this census to the writing on the postcard, we feel there are a number of similarities.

The aim now is to see if we can link Fred Walton to the photos!

I have gone through the MICs on Ancestry for any Fred Walton in the RGA. Having discounted some of them, the one I am drawn to is Fred Walton, Reg.No. 54007

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&MS_AdvCB=1&db=MedalRolls&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=2&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=fred&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=walton&gsln_x=XO&dbOnly=_F0003FD8%7c_F0003FD8_x%2c_F0003FD9%7c_F0003FD9_x&_F0003FD9=Royal+Garrison+Artillery&_F0003FD9_x=1&uidh=pb3&pcat=39&fh=0&h=5210139&recoff=9+10&ml_rpos=1

This Fred Walton was awarded the DCM

I also found a reference in the London Gazette for 1918 where he had been made a temporary 2nd Lt. (if I remember correctly) - unfortunately having just typed all this up it seems the London Gazette website isn't working for me at the moment so I cannot provide the link. Will do so when the website is working again!

There are no service/pension records available for Fred Walton 54007 on Ancestry - ? destroyed, or he continued to serve post war.

Do you think the DCM award and the mention of the commission in 1917 (from the MIC) could be for the right person - could it fit with Fred being in the Cadet School in Trowbridge?

Any recommendations of what other records might be available so that I can get some more info on Fred Walton 54007, e.g. age/place of birth etc. - either to help confirm we are on the right line or to eliminate this one from our research.

I am sorry this is so long winded. Those of you who helped previously may remember it was somewhat complicated, but having now found the change of name we feel we are a little closer to finding out "what happened to Fred"

Added ..

this is the link to the entry in the London Gazette (which I couldn't get to work earlier!)
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30709/supplement/6301

[ss002d6252]

There are no service/pension records available for Fred Walton 54007 on Ancestry - ? destroyed, or he continued to serve post war.

If he was commissioned then any surviving records are held by the national archives and haven't been digitised (the service records pre commission are often lodged with the officers file).

Craig

[ElaineW]

Thanks Craig - that sounds as if it might be useful! Would these records contain details of age/place of birth etc. - or just military history?

[ss002d6252]

Would these records contain details of age/place of birth etc. - or just military history?

If it exists it 'should' be his full service records complete with personal details (as he gave them to the army).

Crag

[ElaineW]

Great - thanks.

[Phil Evans]

The only Fred Walton RGA that I can see in WO 338 has a record in WO 339/119403, but there are possibly others in WO 374.

Phil

[battiscombe]

I can find record of a 2Lt Fred Walton RGA [record 224097] and 2Lt Frederick Harold Walton RGA [record 221793] although neither showing award of DCM in the officer record files index. Annoyingly I cannot get the London Gazette online to work at the moment - it should be possible to locate the commissioning list in which he appears in May 1917, which is likely to included a batch from trowbridge - if it is indeed he. [the commission lists tend to include groups from various cadet schools..]. His photo should also show him wearing the DCM ribbon.. from what I have seen it 'could' be a DCM .. I would add that there is no doubt the photo is trowbridge - as i have acquired more including some of the same men..

[ElaineW]

Thanks Phil and battiscombe.

Am following up Fred Walton 54007 at TNA - hope it's our man!

[ElaineW]

Am following up Fred Walton 54007 at TNA - hope it's our man!

.. and it is! Waiting for copies of the file.

[Karsten]

Elaine, I've read this thread yesterday for the first time. An amazing story!

Just for interest: How did you find out that Fred changed his name to WALTON?

Kind Regards

Karsten

[ElaineW]

Four of us have been pooling our research over the years.

One of them was recently in contact with a distant relative who said she had found a reference to a Fred - with Walton written in brackets - in her grandfather's papers.

That started the trail to see if Fred Walton was our man!