ElaineW Posted 5 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Thanks for your comments Centurion. I accept your words of caution! Have already searched the 1911 census using various wild card searches, to no avail! Coming at it from another angle, do you know of any records which might be available which would explain how it was discovered that Benjamin Pryke was using Fred's identity. I have not given up on the thought that maybe the "real" Fred changed his name as well which is why I wonder if the RA could identify the names of the soldiers on the platoon photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 To put matters in perspective it would seem that oficer training in the RA in WW1 took about 3 months of which not all was spent at Trowbridge. I enclose a timetable from 1916 of another RGA man Feb Convalesces at Steep March Promoted to Corporal. June Applies for commission in Royal Artillery July Declines to stay on permanent staff at Hare Hall Camp Sep Officer Cadet with the R.A. in London Oct Moved to firing camp nr. Trowbridge Nov Commissioned 2nd Lieutenant; posted to 244 Siege Battery, Lydd, Kent Given this one would expect the man in the photo to have been commissioned in 1918 (if the date on the photo is correct). It looks from the group photo as if he did complete the course. Given that no Ovenell appears in the Gazette one can only conclude that he wasn't named as nor was using the name of Ovenell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Elaine: I'm beginning to wonder whether that photograph isn't pre-War. Of all the instructors, only one appears to show a single medal ribbon, apart from Postcard Fred. You're also right that this picture probably doesn't show False Fred. He was only 5'8" and the lad in the middle is, I'm sure, taller than that. What is bothering me is why Pryke would enlist as Fred Ovenell and openly use Fred's documents? Unless he KNEW that the real Fred Ovenell would not show up for enlistment himself, he was running a real risk of discovery right from the start. Why did Pryke feel that he could get away with impersonating Fred Ovenell? Just a wee thought about Real Fred; his son seems to have been born in a bit of a hurry. For a man of some social standing at the time, such as a jeweller (if he was a jeweller), if his marriage to Annie was somewhat forced, this might have caused some social problems. Did Fred Ovenell arrange to disappear? Is the man in the photograph Frank Jones? (there's a letter addressed to him in the file that hints at some sort of issue (but this could be irrelevant - these records can be mixed up). Did Real Fred Ovenell enlist as Frank Jones? If you can't find Fred Ovenell in the 1911 Census or prove that he witnessed that will in 1921, or if you can't pin Frank Jones to the postcard, I think there's a real possibility that Fred and Annie and Benjamin may be tied up in some sort of arrangement, whether by choice or by force. Hope my thoughts don't give offence. As a forensic ethicist, albeit retired, I'm always looking for reasons for behaviour and nothing surprises me. Regards, Antony EDIT: see you were thinking some of this while I was posting. I'm glad Centurion's putting his thoughts to this. He's a terrier when it comes to digging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineW Posted 5 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2011 We really appreciate all the thoughts that are being put forward, and they are certainly not causing offence to me and hopefully not to my fellow researchers who are also hunting for Fred. Whether the marriage between Annie and Fred was forced, I am not sure. All I know is that he seems to have disappeared from their life at some point. According to the daughter of Henry John Ovenell born 1901 (son of Fred and Annie) her father said that according to his mother (Annie) Fred "packed his bags and disappeared into the night". I have no idea when this was, but my feeling is it was early in the marriage as different addresses for Annie and Fred appear in the Hackney Union Workhouse records (1905/1906), with Annie giving her closest relative as her aunt. Did Fred Ovenell arrange to disappear? That's a possibility! Re the Frank Jones letter, I had just presumed it was misfiled - so that is certainly a lead worth following up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 What is bothering me is why Pryke would enlist as Fred Ovenell and openly use Fred's documents? Unless he KNEW that the real Fred Ovenell would not show up for enlistment himself, he was running a real risk of discovery right from the start. Why did Pryke feel that he could get away with impersonating Fred Ovenell? Come to that how did he come to have real Fred's papers in the first place? If Fred was still breathing wouldn't he need them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineW Posted 5 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Being ignorant here, but what sort of papers would he have needed to enlist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Elaine: I'm beginning to wonder whether that photograph isn't pre-War. Same problem - no gazette entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 And further - I think no 1 Officer Cadet School at Trowbridge was a war time creation and before then he would have trained at the Shop. In any case I think it would have been very difficult for Fred to get an RA commission pre war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony paley Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Just a small point, viewing the photograph and taking into account his central position. Gunnery intstructors in the RA also wore white hat bands, could this man be the instructor. Ack IG or SMIG. Tony P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Being ignorant here, but what sort of papers would he have needed to enlist? Hello, Elaine: I was referring to the fact that False Fred's attestation documents refer to "verified by certificate" (or some such - my Ancestry sub is expired and I'm going by memory). I'm not sure what personal i.d. was normal at that time but I take it to mean that False Fred was carrying Real Fred's marriage certificate and , maybe, birth certificates for the children. Centurion's accurate eye for detail has also scotched my thoughts on a pre-War photo. I'd like to know what he thinks of TonyP's suggestion regarding the position held by Postcard Fred. I tend to doubt it as I'm sure a gunnery instructor would be an NCO or Warrant Officer. Postcard Fred has no badges of rank - only that tantalising medal ribbon. Regarding the marriage being "forced", Henry John's birth seems to have occurred well less than nine months after the marriage. This may have provided enough incentive for Real Fred to "leg it" after he discovered that, for a very young man, the realities of a working life with wife and child didn't quite match the thrill of a good fling with Annie. The Army was always a good choice and using an alias would lessen the chances of Annie hunting him down for support. This still leaves us with the question of why Benjamin needed to become False Fred in the first place - and what is the name of Postcard Fred? Yours, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 He's not shown on his fathers probate record Probate record (ancestry) The W H Ovenell mentioned earlier is probably his brother William Henry b. 1885 shown on an ancestry family tree (although missing from the 1891 census of the family home). Ancestry shows this interesting record Name: Fredk Ovenell Number of Males: 1 Number of Females: 3 Household schedule number: 303 Street address: 20 Crendon Road Civil Parish: Oxford St Giles Ecclesiastical parish: Summertown St Michael and All Angels County/Island: Oxfordshire Country: England Registration district: Headington Registration District Number: 2 Sub-registration district: St Clement Sub-Registration District Number: 2 ED, institution, or vessel: 20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineW Posted 5 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2011 I ordered a copy of Henry Edgar Ovenell´s will last month, really to see if Fred is mentioned in it. Still waiting for it to arrive. The 1911 census you have quoted refers to a different person, Frederick Ovenell born 1861. Not our man unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ororkep Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Elaine, Your man in the group photograph front row is seated in between 2/Lt Lejeune F on his right, and 2/Lt Phillips J. L. If either of their records survives you should at least be able to date the photograph exactly. I think they were possibly comm before 1918 Rgds Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY.The undermentioned 2nd Lts. to be Lts. 1st July 1917: — H. W-. Hegarty. F. C. Riley. G. L. Molesworth. F. A. Lejeune. 12th Apr. 1918. G. W. D. Beaman. 5th May 1918. 2nd Lt. J. Phemister is placed on the ret. list on account of ill-health caused by wounds. 23rd May 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Francis Arnold Lejeune 2nd Lt RGA (SR) Entered France on 1 jan 1915 J L Phillips 2nd Lt RGA (SR) Note on card - 'No 1 RGA Officer cadet school forwards application for 1914 Star 29 dec 1917.' Address ' Trowbridge'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Hello, Elaine: I was referring to the fact that False Fred's attestation documents refer to "verified by certificate" (or some such - my Ancestry sub is expired and I'm going by memory). I'm not sure what personal i.d. was normal at that time but I take it to mean that False Fred was carrying Real Fred's marriage certificate and , maybe, birth certificates for the children. Separation allowance (the precursor of the marriage allowance) required some proof of the marriage and the kids existence. A single man with no skilled trade could enlist on the basis of his word (sworn to) and passing a medical. I'm not sure why everyone seems to jump to the conclusion that Fred proper joined the Army in 1905. If he had been in the army (or navy) he would show up somewhere in the 1911 census (even overseas serving military logged) unless he used a false name. The RA Officer cadet is likely to be late in the war. Early on Cadets seem to have worn an embroidered RA badge with the word cadet on one arm. Instructors did not wear the white hat band and very definitely did wear rank badges and service stripes (which if he had been in the army pre war he would have had in plenty). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battiscombe Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 with regard to the group photo, I can add that at least one of the officers and perhaps the WO (would need to see a detail of his face) appear in another PC I have from Trowbridge dated 1st June 1918 - from a cadet (an ex-BQMS) finally gazetted 15/7/1918; so the 1917-1918 timeframe looks OK. Any possibility of seeing a detail of other faces, in case they appear in my card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Elaine, Your man in the group photograph front row is seated in between 2/Lt Lejeune F on his right, and 2/Lt Phillips J. L. If either of their records survives you should at least be able to date the photograph exactly. I think they were possibly comm before 1918 Rgds Paul Lejeune was promoted to lieutenant on 12th Apr. 1918. so the photo must date from before then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battiscombe Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Francis Arnold Lejeune appears to have his second pip does he not in this photo (if the one on the cadet's right - our left) ? which suggests after his April promotion? Both he and Phillips are in my card of June 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineW Posted 5 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2011 I'm amazed that some of you can name the soldiers on the photo! Any possibility of seeing a detail of other faces, in case they appear in my card? Battiscombe, I have a fairly high definition scan of the platoon photo. If you want to send me your email address I can send it to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 I'm not sure why everyone seems to jump to the conclusion that Fred proper joined the Army in 1905. If he had been in the army (or navy) he would show up somewhere in the 1911 census (even overseas serving military logged) unless he used a false name. Hello, C. I don't think anyone's really jumping to that conclusion. It's just being put out as a possibility. It's also a possibility that he started using a false name or that he emigrated or that he missed or contrived to miss Census takers. The probability, as you've helped to highlight, is that, if Postcard Fred is the Real Fred, then he was there under a false name. He is, almost definitely, wearing a medal ribbon but is still a ranker. The only other possibility is if the Real Fred's MIC is missing, along with his service record. Regarding the rank of the officer to Postcard Fred's right (our left), his shoulder tabs seem to be carrying the Crown and Pip of a Lieutenant-Colonel, even tho' he looks awfully young. He's also got what appears to be a wound stripe with two 'pips' on either side. Regards, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Francis Arnold Lejeune appears to have his second pip does he not in this photo (if the one on the cadet's right - our left) ? which suggests after his April promotion? Both he and Phillips are in my card of June 1918 Ah but the only RGA Phillips who seems to fit is an Ernest Lucas Phillips who was a Lt before the begining of 1918. Have we got our Phillips and Lejeunes transposed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrico2009 Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 "verified by certificate" (or some such - my Ancestry sub is expired and I'm going by memory) "Verified from birt[h certificates]" in relation to the three children of Fred's marriage. I have a far-fetched theory: he was a bigamist (horrible punishments in those days), living with both women (my grandfather managed to divide his time between his two families, though they did know about each other and he didn't marry the mistress). Clearly both Fred and Benjamin were born, but I can only find a mention of death for Pryke (1932). It's not impossible that one or other died in infancy and the other assumed his identity to run a double-life. So, I think he was both men as I can't see any other reason for him to have all Fred's papers! It still doesn't explain the photo of a rather young-looking man, but it's the best I can do for now. Just reading the service papers and catching up. Very interesting story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battiscombe Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 I attach a photo of Trowbridge staff - including several of the same men - with a cadet course which left for Lydd in July 1918 - photo pre-2nd June. Noticeable difference is that the warrant officer and another officer had by this time (June) acquired their overseas chevrons - not apparent on any of them or the cadets in the Fred photo.. suggesting before Feb/March? 1918 when the first chevrons seem to appear. One officer is also wearing a mourning armband. The officer with the dog is - i believe - the assistant? adjutant Lt James Woolf and the c/o is - i think - Major Cyril D'Albini Sykes Banks. The Fred photo would thus predate overseas chevrons it would seem.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Out of curiosity - if Fred disappears in 1911 how did the family come to have his picture in 1917 ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now