ElaineW Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 The man shown below is Fred Ovenell, registered at birth in 1881 as Frederick. The photograph appears to show him as a Royal Artillery officer cadet in or around 1918. However, the only records I can find in Ancestry or in the MIC on the National Archives are for a Fred Ovenell in the Hampshires, who then appears to have been unmasked as Benjamin Pryke who was subsequently sent to the Labour Corps. When Benjamin Pryke enlisted he was living with Annie Ovenell (wife of Fred) her son Henry John Ovenell as well as his own two children Albert Victor Pryke and Edith Evelyn Pryke. I am presuming he used Fred's identity at the time as he would have been required to show a marriage certificate in order to claim allowances. These are the documents on Ancestry which relate to Benjamin Pryke, using Fred Ovenell's identity. http://search.ancest...5124&recoff=1+2 http://search.ancest...5125&recoff=1+2 http://search.ancest...281&recoff=9+10 This is the declaration from the service records on Ancestry stating that Benjamin Pryke had used Fred's name when enlisting. http://search.ancest...h=O.Ov.Ove.1455 Can anyone help me find the real Fred Ovenell (shown in the photo above) or suggest where I might look. For reference, I have had help identifying the photo above on the following thread: http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=157840 Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susanhemmings Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 hi elaine, welcome to the forum. i notice that there is a marriage of a frederick ovenell to an annie tyler in june quarter 1901.... also the 1901 census shows frederick (born oxfordshire) as a visitor to the tyler household in shoreditch (annie was noted as being 19 then). (frederick was 21 and his occupation looks to be jeweller...? )... cannot see anything any more helpful. will have a bit more of a scout round... susan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susanhemmings Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 elaine the documents make interesting reading. i paged forward from the document(dated 1920) in which benjamin charles pryke declared he had enlisted in 1915 as fred overnell....it seems he only divulged this after fred had applied for his silver war badge. it also mentions the worcershire regiment....... it is all very confusing. will have a bit more of a look. one of our more knowledgeable colleagues will be able to unravel this pretty quickly!!! will keep looking. infact it gets more confusing......did fred enlist originally as benjamin pryke or did benjamin pryke enlist as fred ovenell..... very odd. wonder if the family changed their name (there was a benjamin charles pryke born st pancras 1880/81). susan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineW Posted 4 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2011 i notice that there is a marriage of a frederick ovenell to an annie tyler in june quarter 1901.... also the 1901 census shows frederick (born oxfordshire) as a visitor to the tyler household in shoreditch (annie was noted as being 19 then). (frederick was 21 and his occupation looks to be jeweller...? )... cannot see anything any more helpful. susan. Thanks for your help Susan. This is the "real" Fred Ovenell. He marries Annie Tyler in 1901. At some point Fred Ovenell and Annie Tyler part company. Annie Tyler then meets up with Benjamin Charles Pryke and they have a son, also named Benjamin, in 1914. Benjamin Pryke then enlists into the Army in 1915, using Fred Ovenell's name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Hello, again, Elaine. The more I read of this, the more I'm tempted to ask you how this lad Pryke pronounced his name . . . However, to be practical, I'm puzzled by how the Real Fred got to be an Arty (artillery) O-C in 1918 when he was applying for a SWB. Can you post the back of the post-card for examination - or are you absolutely sure that it was dated in 1918 (not 1913? 1908?)? He was quite old on enlistment and it seems a bit late to be going into a new Corps - unless of course, he re-enlisted and, due to war service and a possible decoration, he was offered the chance of officer training in a unit that might be considered less exposed to direct combat. Regards, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineW Posted 4 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Thanks for your interest again Antony. There are 4 of us trying to research Fred Ovenell, all related to him in different ways, and we are pooling our resources to see what else we can find. The postcard in question has been given to me by one of the other researchers and it was apparently sent by Fred to his parents in 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Well, that seems to confirm that he was at No. 1 Officer Cadet School, Royal Garrison Artillery, Trowbridge in 1918. The 'few days leave' likely refers to the end-of-course leave, especially as he appears to be top cadet. I take it that "Mrs. F" is an endearment for "Mrs. Fred" (Ovenell) and that it is a second Mrs. Ovenell - or is it his mum?. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineW Posted 4 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2011 I gather the postcard was sent to his parents, although it is addressed to his mother. I read it as: Dear M & F (that is dear Mother and Father) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 That makes more sense. The reference to being 'about again' could refer to whatever qualified him for the SWB or to his being away on course at the school. The former seems more likely. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 The guy in the photo looks younger than the 38 he would have to be if he were the Fred who married Annie (or for that matter if he were Benjamin). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 A Frederick Ovenell was named as an executor of the will of one William Simmonds, late of Sunnymeade, Oxford, in May 1921 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 In late December 1917 the Army Council put out notices in the Special Gazette to the effect that the supply of candidates for admission to Royal Artillery Officer Cadet Units exceeded the demand it was most desirable that the number of candidates accepted for the Royal Artillery be kept to a minimum. Accordingly applicants were not wanted unless they had very strong claims to be considered for the artillery and applicants must expect to be sent to infantry officer cadet schools instead. Would a 38 year old who had been in another unit since 1915 qualify given this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineW Posted 4 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2011 I agree that he looks younger than 37/38 years of age and can offer no explanation for this! Re the application for the Silver War Badge, is it not possible that this rightly belonged to Benjamin Pryke and the application came from him (using the name Ovenell). The "true" Fred Ovenell (photo above) appears to have his own medal for which there seems to be no documentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Re Centurion's comment; it's true that 38 is a bit old to be shifting to OC School unless his gallantry medal and age actually worked in his favour. Elaine, I noticed that the signature of the Ancestry Fred doesn't match the signature of the Postcard Fred so the SWB application may have come from Pryke (False Fred). The records on Ancestry seem to show that the soldier known as Fred was attested as 18391 and posted to 3rd Battalion Hampshires (training reserve - never left England) then to 2nd Battn. and posted to "M.E. Force" (Mediterranean Expeditionary Force possibly) from 17 January 1916 until 9 December 1916. He went sick soon after and sent to a Labour Centre in Plymouth. Posting to the Labour Corps was quite common in such circumstances. What is not common is that he would suddenly appear to have materialised as 68695 in the Worcesters 1st Garrison Battalion (formed in Portsmouth in January 1916 and left for Dublin in June 1918). Along the way he (also?) was sent to the Labour Corps where he is given the number 342063. In February 1919 he is discharged from 1st Garrison Battn. Worcesters (odd if he's already got a Labour Corps number) as "no longer physically fit for service" on account of myalgia and defective eyesight (definitely not an asset for an RGA officer-cadet) and in March 1919 he applies for his SWB. Neither of the signatures of this man, Ancestry Fred, appear to match the writing of Postcard Fred. What does not make sense is that a sick Fred (Pryke?) in the Hampshires be reincarnated as a sick Fred (Pryke?) in the Worcesters and that the Real Fred would appear as a 38-year old OC at RGA without any prior record of service (unless it was pre-War). Sorry this doesn't answer anything. I thought it might help to think out loud. I'm hoping that someone's sharp eyes will find the flaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineW Posted 4 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2011 ... and that the Real Fred would appear as a 38-year old OC at RGA without any prior record of service (unless it was pre-War). The real Fred Ovenell seems to disappear circa 1905. His wife Annie and two children, Henry John Ovenell and Violet Edna Ovenell appear in the Hackney Union workhouse records in 1905. We cannot find Fred in the 1911 census so maybe he was in the services at that time. The next sighting we have of him is in a photo dated 1917, in a RA Officer cadet uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Hi to add a bit of background information to this puzzle Benjamin C Pryke from the 1911 census with wife and Children PRYKE, Benjamin C Head Married M 30 Born 1881 London PRYKE, Jenny May Wife Married 8 years F 27 Born1884 Painter House Cambs Guyhirn PRYKE, Albert Victor Son M 7 Born1904 School London PRYKE, Edith Evelyn Daughter F 4 Born1907 School Norfolk Walsoken Address 40 Prince Street Walsoken Cambridgeshire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Where is the evidence that the man in the photo is Fred Ovenell? He's named Fred and writing to a Mrs Ovenell doesn't cut it really. No Ovenell was gazetted as commissioned between 1st Jan 1918 and 30th Dec 1920. Indeed only one Ovenell appears this being:- 2nd Lt. W. H. Ovenell is placed on the ret. list on account of ill-health contracted on active service. 23rd May 1918. Given the difficulties of getting into the RA Officer Cadets and the youthful looks I suspect that the photo is of a family friend but whether of the Ovenells for real or the Faux Ovenells would be difficult to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Where is the evidence that the man in the photo is Fred Ovenell? He's named Fred and writing to a Mrs Ovenell doesn't cut it really. No Ovenell was gazetted as commissioned between 1st Jan 1918 and 30th Dec 1920. Indeed only one Ovenell appears this being:- 2nd Lt. W. H. Ovenell is placed on the ret. list on account of ill-health contracted on active service. 23rd May 1918. Given the difficulties of getting into the RA Officer Cadets and the youthful looks I suspect that the photo is of a family friend but whether of the Ovenells for real or the Faux Ovenells would be difficult to say. Centurion! You do tantalise. Please tell us more about 2/Lt Ovenell. This is the third (second? fourth?) man in this mystery to suffer ill health. Also, may I respectfully suggest that "Dear M&F", if indeed meaning "Dear Mother and Father", would allow that the writer was Real Fred Ovenell. Kindest regards, Antony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineW Posted 4 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Re the authenticity of the photographs - the researcher who has copies of them has no reason to doubt them. (She has joined the forum but cannot post yet) They came to her from Fred's niece, who she believes got them from her mother (Fred's sister, Lilias). Both photos are also carefully annotated. The two photos in our possession can be seen on this thread http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=157840 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Re the authenticity of the photographs - the researcher who has copies of them has no reason to doubt them. (She has joined the forum but cannot post yet) They came to her from Fred's niece, who she believes got them from her mother (Fred's sister, Lilias). Both photos are also carefully annotated. The two photos in our possession can be seen on this thread http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=157840 Looking at the photo in the link - if that man is 37 (and suffering from an illness to boot) then he has a much older portrait hidden in the attic and my name is van Tromp. I have family photos from the same period courtesy of my grandmother and after some research some of the people in them are not quite who we thought they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Centurion! You do tantalise. Please tell us more about 2/Lt Ovenell. This is the third (second? fourth?) man in this mystery to suffer ill health. Also, may I respectfully suggest that "Dear M&F", if indeed meaning "Dear Mother and Father", would allow that the writer was Real Fred Ovenell. Kindest regards, Antony. If that is indeed an & - it looks more like the Mrs in the address. Re the entry for Lt Ovenell I know no more than the gazette extract except that it appears in an infantry section. However it's significant there is no Ovenell commissioned in the period which indicates that if the lad in the photo is an Ovenell he didn't pass out. However if he isn't it would explain why the name does not appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Elaine: a couple of thoughts. Just because the p.c. is dated 1918, doesn't necessarily mean that the photo was taken then. Your man could have been carrying it around (it refers to him being about again) since OC school. On the other hand, Centurion's search seems rather definite that no Ovenells were commissioned except W.H. - and he appears to have attended infantry officer's school. This chap wouldn't have been in the front row unless he had passed. A third thought is that, if mother and father were alive, the address is rather peculiar in being "Mrs. Ovenell" - the usual address for a widow (unless they were separated). Despite all that, if Postcard Fred were False Fred, it is highly unlikely that he would get to Arty OC school with his service record. I'm afraid that you've got a real mystery on your hands, especially as we can plainly see what appears to be a medal ribbon on his chest. For now, Antony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineW Posted 5 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Thanks everyone for their help. I can quite understand that there is concern that this may not be the "real" Fred Ovenell, but as I have said we have no reason to doubt it because of the annotation. Re the dates, I may not have made it clear on this thread that the portrait photo was not on the back of the written postcard, my apologies. The actual photos are as follows: The back of the portrait is plain brown, with the words Fred 1917 written on it - . and the back of the postcard is the photo of the platoon, with Fred sitting in the middle front row. I don't think there is any doubt that we are referring to the "real" Fred here, and not the "false" Fred, namely Benjamin Pryke. Has anyone any suggestions where we might go from here? Are there any indexes at the National Archives which might list the names of men enlisting in the RA Officer Cadet School. Do you think it is worth contacting the RA to see if they can identify and date the platoon photo, if so does anyone have any contact details? The problem is that Fred completely disappears from 1905 onwards, no further marriage and no death date can be found! Very annoying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Thanks everyone for their help. I can quite understand that there is concern that this may not be the "real" Fred Ovenell, but as I have said we have no reason to doubt it because of the annotation. Re the dates, I may not have made it clear on this thread that the portrait photo was not on the back of the written postcard, my apologies. The actual photos are as follows: The back of the portrait is plain brown, with the words Fred 1917 written on it - Just a slight caution from experience - annotations on the back of photos can be misleading and one should not put too much faith in them. I have a large batch of photos found in my Grandmother's effects in the late 1960s. Many have annotations on the back in my grandmother's writing however after some research and contacting other family members I find that she must have added many of these (much) later in life and her memory failed her so that in some instances so that the name is wrong, the date is wrong or both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Has anyone any suggestions where we might go from here? Are there any indexes at the National Archives which might list the names of men enlisting in the RA Officer Cadet School. Do you think it is worth contacting the RA to see if they can identify and date the platoon photo, if so does anyone have any contact details? The problem is that Fred completely disappears from 1905 onwards, no further marriage and no death date can be found! Very annoying! If he were in the army in 1911 it should be possible to use the census for that year to find him -see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=158034&view=findpost&p=1526895 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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