Looking for the real Fred Ovenell!

[corisande]

Interesting

You are suggesting it is "Messrs" rather than "Mrs" and that M and F may be 2 men?

[centurion]

Interesting

You are suggesting it is "Messrs" rather than "Mrs" and that M and F may be 2 men?

No I think its Mrs but it might not be Ovenell.If anyone can see an alternative name it would be interesting to see if anyone with the same name was commisioned in the RGA in 1918

[ElaineW]

A comparison of handwriting.

Signature of Fred Ovenell on his marriage to Annie Tyler

Handwriting on the postcard, which we believe was sent by the same Fred.

[centurion]

and to add to my post above on Annie Tyler

6. She has a child by Leonard Wareham, another Leonard J Wareham. Difficult to say from he dates to know if the 1918 marriage was forced by the birth, probably not.

Anyway you have no reason to think that Annie divorced Fred, and Fred was still alive at the time of her marriage to Wareham. I accept that the real Fred could have died between the photo being taken in 1918 and Annie marrying in 1918. But I would have thought that his parents would have corrected the CWGC entry if he had been killed.

So that marriage certainly looks bigamous.

I still think that there is no concrete evidence that the man in the photo is the original Fred. She declared herself a widow perhaps she knew something we don't.

[RaySearching]

Quote From Piorun

3/4. I think all we have to on is a tale of postcard(s) or letters from Egypt and the postcard and photo posted by Elaine. These we suppose to be of the Real Fred as the back of the group shot is signed "Fred", it is addressed to "Mrs. Ovenell" and Elaine believe that the salutation is to "Dear M&F" (i.e., mother and father). Others of us think that it might be to "Mrs. F" - an endearment for "Missus Fred" (i.e., a wife). The postcard front has a marking pointing to the man in the middle and he is the same man in the solo photo.

Below is a the handwriting of Benjamin Pryke taken from the 1911 census

below it is the handwriting from the post card believed to have been sent by the real Fred there is the possibility as Piron has suggested

that the postcard was sent by Pryke "The False Fred"to his Wife

the handwriting looks very similar to my eyes " handwriting experts needed" or opinions sought

As the False Fred did not declare that he had been serving under a false name until 1920

and the postcard being dated 1918 Pryke the false Fred would have still been using his alias to communicate with his wife

[corisande]

Seems to be the same "F"

Let me run another line of attack, which turns out is not easy

Assume for a moment that the "real" Fred signed up under a false name. Whilst I admit it could have been anything, using his mother's maiden name is a possibility

I have tried "Fred Jones" in MICs and LG, but the problem is that it is too common and throws up too many choices, even narrowing under RGA. I have failed to find a Fred Jones commissioned into RGA in 1918. But if he wanted to use an alias, seems like a good one

There is that odd letter in the "false" Fred's file referring to "Frank Jones" (think it says Frank. Could it be connected.

[ElaineW]

Have to say that I don't think the writing on the 1911 census for Pryke and the postcard (see post #80) are from the same person.

Corisande,

I was thinking along the same lines earlier this morning and wondered if he signed up using his MMN.

I tried to follow up the letter which appears in the "false" Fred file, address to Frank Jones. It has a nunber 14765 written on it which I presume is his regimental number and could therefore refer to the following MIC.

Do you think it could be relevant?

[Martin Bennitt]

finding it difficult to follow the ins and outs of this fascinating story, which must be soon a candidate for classic thread status, but for my two pennorth I think there are three different handwritings here: the Pryke census return, the main postcard text and the note below the address on the postcard, which presumably was written later. At any rate, the ink looks less faded.

cheers Martin B

[corisande]

So that others may more easily see, this letter appears in the false Fred's service record

It seems to have a number things

Frank Jones

14765

Worcestershire Regt

Kings Own Regt, which is Royal Lancs,

So this appears to be your MIC. Still does not explain why it is in false Fred's file, unless the Worcs Regt and False Fred being in them at one time, and it does indeed really point to real Fred. Nothing really more than MMN and being in False Fred's file

[Stebie9173]

I believe this is the right family:

The 1911 Oxford Kelly's Directory shows:

Ovenell, Frederick, 20 Hamilton Road, Summertown, Oxford

Ovenell, Henry Edgar, 30 Oakthorpe Road, Summertown, Oxford (also cycle dealer at 8 Woodstock Road, St Giles)

Ovenell, Mrs., 34 Hamilton Road, Summertown, Oxford

Ovenell, Reginald, 14 Church Street, New Hinksey

Percy Ovenell (Ovenell & Fowles, bookbinders), 35a Holywell Street.

http://www.historicaldirectories.org/

Also 1907 -

Frederick Ovenell, 11 Oakthorpe Road.

(Plus others)

He doesn't seem to have run very far by 1911.... Assming it is the right Frederick Ovenell !

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Sorry, this seems to be the 1861 Fred Ovenell.... (assuming the age on the 1911 Census is correct).

Steve.

[corisande]

Yes, that Frederick at 20 Hamilton Rd is the 50 year old grocer, married to a Laura

[corisande]

And apropo nothing really, I see that Elaine is Elaine W******(probably!)

Amazing what you can find out by accident.

[corisande]

Yes you are right, I have edited my post. Was relevant to the family history though!

[Piorun]

Quote From Piorun:

3/4. I think all we have to go on is a tale of postcard(s) or letters from Egypt and the postcard and photo posted by Elaine. These we suppose to be of the Real Fred as the back of the group shot is signed "Fred", it is addressed to "Mrs. Ovenell" and Elaine believes that the salutation is to "Dear M&F" (i.e., mother and father). Others of us think that it might be to "Mrs. F" - an endearment for "Missus Fred" (i.e., a wife). The postcard front has a marking pointing to the man in the middle and he is the same man in the solo photo.

Below is a the handwriting of Benjamin Pryke taken from the 1911 census

below it is the handwriting from the post card believed to have been sent by the real Fred there is the possibility as Piron has suggested

that the postcard was sent by Pryke "The False Fred"to his Wife . . . .

Sorry, Ray, I wasn't suggesting that False Fred wrote the p/c. Just the opposite. Going by False Fred's service record, there's no chance he was an RGA Officer Cadet in 1918 so could not be the man in the photos. Yours, Antony

On another point: while Elaine has found Frank Jones' MIC, and while it is definitely related to the letter in False Fred's file, it still seems unlikely that Frank (Fred) would have ended up as an RGA Officer Cadet in 1918. We would have to find a Frank Jones who was Gazetted out of RGA School and who was awarded a gallantry medal (see solo photo). Antony

PS thanks, Corisande. I've deleted mine. A

[corisande]

apparently there was also a card from him in Egypt in 1918 and photographs of Egypt but the location of these are not known.

Do you have that card for posting, or at least the date. In other words does that card pre-date, or post date the card from RGA class.

[ElaineW]

And apropo nothing really, I see that Elaine is Elaine W******(probably!)

Amazing what you can find out by accident.

...the power of google!

Do you have that card for posting, or at least the date. In other words does that card pre-date, or post date the card from RGA class.

No we don´t have these and unfortunately don't know what has happened to them. Our knowledge of these comes from a letter written by the daughter of Fred´s sister.

[corisande]

Elaine

As I really should do something else now, I am afraid all I can suggest is really the RGA option

You can narrow do the intake to a small number, and you need an RGA expert to see how narrowly you can narrow it down.

You really need the names of all the men and see if any are possibly the real Fred.

Alternatively you could slog through a comparatively limited time period in LG to get the names. I assume they would have been all commissioned together from each of the "classes" and if you are certain that they are all RGA (I do not know enough about RGA to know if they are all RGA or a mix of RA types)then you should be able to pick up the groupings.

Obviously the narrower a time period you are looking at the better. I don't know how many of these groups graduated from there. One a month, one a week, ?? you need to find out. Ot of any one group, you can take a punt at whether any are him serving under a false name. Once you have some options, then officers paers are (usually) available in Kew.

[ElaineW]

Corisande,

Many thanks for all your help - I do appreciate the time you and others have spent trying to help unravel this mystery.

[centurion]

Alternatively you could slog through a comparatively limited time period in LG to get the names. I assume they would have been all commissioned together from each of the "classes" and if you are certain that they are all RGA (I do not know enough about RGA to know if they are all RGA or a mix of RA types)then you should be able to pick up the groupings.

I suspect they would all be bound for the RGA -see enclosed copies of details of two Trowbridge alumni

In the First World War Ronald Henry Sampson entered the army as Private 197568 in the Royal Field Artillery but was sent for officer training at Trowbridge Cadet School for the Royal Garrison Artillery, following which he was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant on 10 December 1917. He landed in France on 13th of January 1918, and was killed in action there at the age of 20 on 30 August 1918. He is buried in the Boyelles Community Cemetery extension (II.G.3).

Rupert Edward EVERITT 16th of January 1916 he enlisted as a Gunner 75930 in the Royal Garrison Artillery and was mobilised on the 11th of April joining the 162nd Siege Battery on the 20th. He was promoted to the rank of Bombardier on the 26th of July 1916 and went to France the following day to join the 144th Siege Battery.

On the 14th of September he returned to attend Cadet School at St John’s Wood in London and on the 23rd of October went to Trowbridge to continue his training.

He received a commission as a 2nd Lieutenant on the 10th of December 1916 and returned to France in May 1917 with the 299th Siege Battery.

This agrees with the details of another Trowbridge graduate I posted earlier. It would seem that one didn't have to be an RGA man to get in (but you very probably had to be an artilleryman of some sort). This further rules out false Fred and narrows down identifying the man in the photo a bit.

[alf mcm]

This is a fascinating story, and I would like to make a couple of observations.

1 We don't know when real Fred changed his name. He was awarded a medal, probably for bravery. This fact would almost certainly have been reported in the local press, and would probably tell of his Regiment, may have given his number, and there may even have been a photograph! This alone could confirm if postcard Fred is real Fred.

2 If real Fred is postcard Fred then his lack of medal record card may be because, as an officer, he never claimed his medals.

3 Would it be possible for real Fred to be mentioned in an Absent Voters Roll?

4 Perhaps Fred emigrated after the war, and that is why we can't find his death?

5 Real Fred should be mentioned in the LG under his own name, but as we all know LG is sometimes difficult to search. As we have seen on the postcard, he writes a capital 'O' as a 'U', so this may help to find him.

6 What if Fred won his medal before the War, it might be worth a search.

7. Could Fred have served in say the Australian or Canadian Army before being selected for Cadet training in Britain?

Hopefully these observations will help.

[corisande]

Centurion

Can you fill me in on Officer cadet training at Trowbridge

1, Did they have a regular intake, say once a week/month or whatever. If so what was it

2. How many cadets per intake, in other words do the 40 men in the photo represent the sort of regular intake that there might have been

3. At the end of a course would one have expected to see them all gazetted together

[centurion]

2 If real Fred is postcard Fred then his lack of medal record card may be because, as an officer, he never claimed his medals.

There would still be a record just as there would be an entry in the gazette when he was commissioned.

[centurion]

Centurion

Can you fill me in on Officer cadet training at Trowbridge

1, Did they have a regular intake, say once a week/month or whatever. If so what was it

2. How many cadets per intake, in other words do the 40 men in the photo represent the sort of regular intake that there might have been

3. At the end of a course would one have expected to see them all gazetted together

To use a very technical term "b*****d if I know" but I'm looking. It does seem that the time between starting officer training and finishing same was about 3 months and the 1st month was at St Johns Wood London. Trowbridge had a firing range (using heavy guns in St Johns Wood might leave some scars!) [The US Army definitely had a 3 month heavy artillery officers course which would tend to suggest that this is about right]

[Verrico2009]

Thanks for setting out your points, Elaine - a very tricky one!

What I can't figure out is why he got transferred to the Worcesters after apparently being ill in the Hampshires. Normal practice if he was unfir for line service with the Hampshires would have been to transfer him to the Labour Corps straight away.

Antony - my reading of the timeline is:-

• Hampshires to Labour Corps - 22 July 1917
• Labour Corps to Worcesters - 2 November 1918 "compulsorily and permanently transferred"
• Discharged - 22 February 1919

What I find interesting is that on 23 July 1918, the officer i/c Labour Corps records wrote to Mrs Pryke: "will you please state distinctly the following particulars of your husband to enable [us to] complete records - Benjamin Charles Pryke serving under the assumed na[me] of F Ovenel[l]. So they were onto him that early. "Fred" didn't apply for his SWB until 15 April 1919 and the declaration/confession was March 1920. Unfortunately the date appears to be 1916, but I can't help wondering if the note on his conduct sheet of "making a false statement to an NCO" was when it all started to unravel!