6 British soldiers found in Comines-Warneton

[Joris Ryckeboer]

The CWGC annual report 2009-2010:

http://www.cwgc.org/news.asp?newsid=195&view=yes

About Fromelles:

Recovery and identification was the

responsibility of the Australian and British

governments since the soldiers were known to

be of their forces, although they appointed the

Commission to co-ordinate that part of the

operation for them.

Source; http://www.cwgc.org/admin/files/c.%20Part%201.pdf

[Didier]

Joris has it correctly. As soon as I establish the nationality I contact either the CWGC, Volksbund, Frech consulat, etc....

And by the way, when the Diggers were active the only role to be played by Belgian MOD was the safe keeping of the remains.

When do we talk about a body? Good question! Of course not we a finger is found. This usually doesn't happen because the farmers don't even notice this.

Don't think that when a piece of skull is found by a farmer and the police brings it in or sends for me that a search is started. Remember, this is a gigantic area were talking about. Those "remains" are found almost daily ! There would'nt be enough archeologists in Belgium to do all this !

Anyhow, if the police is involved, we talk about "remains" and we try to establish the nationality.

Didier

[Aurel Sercu]

Joris and Didier,

As to the Belgian MOD. I must say I don't recall in how far they were involved. Maybe they were. But then that was after we had done our job (finding and exhuming the remains, and handing them over to the police). Also : I can only speak about until April 2004. Maybe since then things have changed.

When can we speak, when finding remains, of a "person" ? Good question indeed. Often we were in doubt. (I remember that once a skull, and only a skull, was found, and that it was decided to rebury (in a cemetery) as a person, in an individual non-identified grave . )

Aurel

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Didier, I'm glad the procedure became the same in every Belgian region now.

That was a bit a puzzle to me in this topic.

And I understand now, why this "first" big discovery in Walonia, was a bit of a "secret".

It will have been a hell of a job to you, to coordinate this and to line-up everybody involved, for the first time under the new laws/procedures/...

Great job, Didier!

I hope, the rest will follow soon, so they can have a decent reburial,and a peaceful final place to rest.

[Phil135]

Sorry to be a bore, but any chance of a position fix on the discovery field so that armchair tacticians can mull over the possibilities?

[Didier]

Sorry Muldoon, no can do. Nothing personal of course but giving free the exact location will attrack strange people who just wait for a opportunity to stray over the battlefield hoping to find something. They would destroy everything in the area and start digging without any knowledge or permit.

Didier

[Phil135]

Thanks Didier, I apologise for my naivete. I keep forgetting human nature. I shall ponder on the information published so far.

Thanks for the prompt and courteous reply.

[Yvonne H]

http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/viewtopic.php?p=331025#331025 This links to a Flemish radio-report.

Geert Spillebeen ( journalist and author) was at the place as the only reporter at the spot.

Regards,

Yv

[willy]

How were they found in the first instance?

[Seadog]

Willy, see post 91 that gives some details of how the remains were originally found. What prompted the finder(s) to be in the farmers field in the first place is open to speculation.

Regards

Norman

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Patrick Roelens originally found the first remains.

Or he was called by the farmer himself and who knows him, or he has the permision from the farmer to walk over the farmers land after plowing.

After that, Police and then the Belgian Institute came into action.

[Phil135]

Re the regiments mentioned in the press reports, a quick search shows that 2/Lancashire Fusiliers and 1/Kings Own (Royal Lancaster) were both in 12th Brigade, 4th Division. They were in the line roughly St Yves - Le Gheir [apologies if Sir John French's spelling is incorrect!],on the East side of Ploegsteert Wood. In October/November 1914 this bit of the line changed hands several times, notably 21st October. There were also several attempts to straighten the line in November.

It seems reasonable to assume that the men are from 12th brigade or 1tth brigade, which was alongside. As somebody noted above, it is reasonable to have a personal interest in all this, particularly as in my case the odds against an ancestor turning up after ninety years are considerably reduced. .

[Ian C]

For what it is worth the attached is taken from the 10/11/10 edition of the English version of a Belgium newspaper that I receive.

[SteveMarsdin]

Are these the discoveries Phoebus refers to

 

 

[NigelS]

Certainly seems to be; also in this thread 'soldiers remains new finds.' Click relating to an article over the weekend in the Sun

Good to see that some efforts at identification are being made even if it's not the MOD/CWGC

(for completeness the links to the Sun article: Here & BBC Manchester: Here)

NigelS

[emmanuel bril]

Hello , an another link who talking about this discovery

http://www.buryfocus.co.uk/news-features/17/news-headlines/50157/bodies-of-first-world-war-lancashire-fusiliers-discovered-in-belgium

[NigelS]

Hello , an another link who talking about this discovery

Interesting, details of the JCCCs (mentioned at the end of the linked article) likely involvement can be found Here

NigelS

[Seadog]

Has anybody an update to the situation regarding the 6 British soldiers?. The story of the 15 Brits found at Beaucamps-Ligny has likewise gone cold!.

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

No real surprise there then Norman,wonder if the MOD Department concerned would care to give out an update ? (I very much doubt it).

[Seadog]

Good point PBI, I would hate to think that the next time that we hear of the 21 British Soldiers is through the “grapevine” after they have been quietly buried in some war cemetery. But hang on that would never happen would it?

Regards

Norman

Here is one that did, this is long before the CWGC agreed to report the burials on their web site so that we were all aware of what is happening.

Tyne Cot:

[PBI]

Every Picture tells a story,and this Photo simply seems to me to reinforce the MOD/CWGC stance of Anything to save a few Quid,and to keep Interested Parties and the Media totally uninformed in case they raise the question of possibly trying to provide Identification,thus incurring more expense and Media attention..i can almost hear the Mandarins at the MOD/CWGC sighing "Oh No,Not another One" every time a set of Allied Soldiers Remains from WW1 are discovered..yet i note Civvie Standard Bearer in attendance..at least the Standard bearer seems to have been privy to some inside information.

[Seadog]

PBI, I came across this occasion completely by accident, at the same time a coach party of British schoolchildren were visiting and to their great credit were very well behaved and interested in what was happening and how the soldiers are still being found after so many years. I agree with you that it seems a quite ludicrous situation that neither the 6 found in Belgium nor the 15 found in France have received any official media coverage in the UK whatsoever. I am of the understanding that human remains recovered as part of an archeological excavation which all of these were, are now in the UK subject to reburial within a period of two years from such excavation. Although the remains were found in Europe I suggest that as they are now in the hands of either the British MOD or the CWGC they should be covered by the UK law. If so the Beaucamps-Ligny 15 will have to be reburied no later than November 2011, unless of course these organizations manage to work their way around the law which would come as no surprise whatsoever to me.

Regards

Norman

[chrislock]

The Chaplain in the photo is Ray Jones and the civvy standard bearer as you put it is Ronnie Loof. Ronnie is the Ypres Branch standard bearer and by the way, he is arguably one of the most dedicated and respectful RBL standard bearers out there.

The Ypres Branch of the RBL are informed of all Salient area burials etc by the CWGC and members will make an attendance.

Who else is informed I can only guess due to persons I normally recognise in attendance at these burials.

I personally believe the CWGC is in a very difficult situation here, invite the world or keep it to selected organisations and officials but whatever they do, some will be happy whilst others will not.

I don't think there is an answer or situation which will please all.

If we look at the photo again, irrelevant to who is in attendance, the recovered soldier(s)are receiving the time honored burial denied them and that has to be all that matters, surely?

[dfaulder]

>><<

Who else is informed I can only guess due to persons I normally recognise in attendance at these burials.

I personally believe the CWGC is in a very difficult situation here, invite the world or keep it to selected organisations and officials but whatever they do, some will be happy whilst others will not.

>><<

We are probably begining to get to the stage where unpublicised burials are the way to go, but not yet.

If, say ten years ago, the CWGC was proposing to bury an "unknown" recovered from the Vierstraat area, and my late father had got to hear of it, he may well have wanted to be taken out to the burial. He would have had known that the body had not been identified as his father's, but it could have been him (better chance than any other on offer) and it might have given my father some comfort after 80+ years. Certainly at his age he would probably have viewed it as his "last chance".

If a Vierstraat unknown was recovered today, would I want to the option of attending? Quite possibly.

I suspect a number of those "outside the wall" at the Fromelles service (or who would have attended if space permitted), might have been people thinking "I wonder if he is one of them?"

David

[Seadog]

Chris Lock, I have no doubt whatsoever that the soldiers have a respectful burial whether they are known or unknown. Without going over the same ground that has been debated on this forum all I and others ask is that a proper notification of these burials is given by the CWGC, as indeed they have agreed to so do via their web site. This is only an extension to the informal system still in being where certain individuals and groups are notified of such occasions directly by the CWGC. I can see no logical reason whatsoever why these burials of our countrymen or those of Australia etc should be subjected to any form of secrecy at all and if members of the public wish to attend such services then let them. After all whether we like it or not these soldiers died in our name.

Regards

Norman