6 British soldiers found in Comines-Warneton

[Seadog]

Ramses, how refreshing it is to read a first-hand account of the discovery of one of the fallen. You must be congratulated in taking the time and effort to share with us your work in giving this man the chance of the dignity of a name and a decent burial, I wish that all such discoveries could be reported in such detail as this will stop any misconceptions about the motives of the finder and in this case confirms my suspicions that if it were not for public spirited people like you them this man and goodness knows how many others would simply just disappear and it would be as though they never existed. I congratulate you again on your efforts and sincerely hope that his identity will be confirmed and a new metal cross with be erected in Langemark bearing his name.

Regards

Norman

[Yvonne H]

Thanks Ramses for youraddition, your english is better than mine

Regards,

Yvonne

[Seadog]

Bearing in mind the openess with which Ramses has shared his finding of the fallen soldier, how about those of you in the know sharing the circumstances of the finding of the 6 British soldiers. Or is this some kind of state secret?. As a Brit I for one would very much like the full details.

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

Amen to that Sentiment of Seadogs.

[robins2]

Bearing in mind the openess with which Ramses has shared his finding of the fallen soldier, how about those of you in the know sharing the circumstances of the finding of the 6 British soldiers. Or is this some kind of state secret?. As a Brit I for one would very much like the full details.

Regards

Norman

a very interesting but disturbing circumstances, it seems all controlled by lack of funds/man power

I wonder if it would be feasible to put together a group of volunteers/experts from this forum and work on projects like the Comines-warneton with the CWGC to at least attempt to identify the remains.

I have no doubt that the members of this forum have the qualifications/expertise, I for one would contribute my limited expertise(police/military) & time/travel etc., to work on a project from the start/excavation etc.

What are your thoughts and comments?

Regards

Bob R.

[Joris Ryckeboer]

I know Ramses and his admirable efforts to identify the German soldier; but his path is full of obstacles as you could read... New procedures, a lot of administration, relevant services, new (archeological) and old (police) laws, the owner of the land, and so on.

In this case, between the rather accidental discovery by the plow of a farmer and the final recovery as it should be, the struggles with those obstacles were certainly similar...

Such an excavation needs now a days, instead of a party of enthousiastic volunteers; commitment and good-will from every body involved (also them without interests), and also resources of all parties (owner, the administration, goverments, etc.).

Sad but trough.

This is to my opinion, the best summary yet;

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/mediatheek_en/1.901979

For me, it may take even a bit longer, if the result is a positive identification and a proper reburial. This is still in progress. And I think this release into the press, will pump up the pressure on the involved adminitration.

But one thing is for sure, after this (in first instant) accidental discovery; these missing will have at last a proper final resting place!

[Seadog]

That is certainly a idea Bob R (Post 55) but right now and in my opinion there is an urgent need for complete openness and transparency from ALL those involved in the discovery, attempted identification and eventual reburial of the fallen, in this case I am of course referring specifically to British and Commonwealth soldiers. Some forum members may not be aware that the CWGC employ an “Exhumation Manager” whose responsibilities in my view are somewhat “shadowy” and ill-defined to say the least. I take it that this person will be involved at the very start of any exhumation, providing of course that the discovery has been notified to the CWGC in the first place. No right-minded person with an interest in the Great War and I primarily include members of this forum in this, can be anything but seriously disturbed by the present situation. What is happening now is not right and must be addressed.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

Joris, is the video concerning the subject of this thread, the 6 British soldiers found in 2008 and exhumed for some unclear reason in 2010?. If so then this just adds to the almost total and complete lack of information placed in the public domain following the discovery of the fallen. How can there be a video explaining details of the find when there are NO such reports whatsoever in the UK or any mention of same by the CWGC/MOD.

Can you understand the frustration and concern that such lack of information generates here in the UK when we see and read about our countrymen being exhumed and talked about in this way? Putting it bluntly how would you as a Belgian feel if the opposite happened and 6 Belgian soldiers were dug up here in Britain but nobody apart from the British were told, you I think would not be very happy. Well that is how I feel.

Regards

Norman

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Norman, I was indeed not aware of the presence of an Exhumation Manager.

And it is not right to me too. Rules and administration, mades it painfully slow...

[dfaulder]

I think Norman is right in saying that it has to start with transparency about finds; without that, having agreement about the scope of the identification process is pretty pointless.

Presumably on this website we have people who know what is meant to happen when a body is found (in the UK, France or Belgium). There has been a certain amount about this on the forum about who tells who etc., but I wonder can we go to a stage deeper?

Presumably in England (the country I live, so I start from here), if a body is found the coroner has to be informed (irrespective of how "old" the body is?). Doesn't he or she have to operate in the open - do they have to publish anything? Do we still have court reporters (usually young and inexperienced) hanging around hoping to find a story?

Do we have similar processes in France and Belgium (which I think is where most of us have focused our concerns) - or are their legal systems just too different?

Any coroners on the forum?

David

[Seadog]

Norman, I was indeed not aware of the presence of an Exhumation Manager.And it is not right to me too. Rules and administration, mades it painfully slow...

Joris, this is an extract of an e-mail from the CWGC Arras office following my query about burials of found British soldiers which took place in 2009 and which there again was no information given prior to the interments. Note the mention of the Exhumation Officer, the bold text is mine.

“The place of burials is traditionally determined by the location where the remains have been found (the closest cemetery).Please be informed that our Exhumation Officer made all the appropriate investigation to try to identify these sets of remains.”

Norman

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Norman, I share your feelings. That's for sure. And I was also very surprised! Normally, I'm well informed about discoveries or other WW1-related news. And I also don't understand why this didn't reach the British press.

But, yes, this video was about the 6 soldiers in Komen.

The plow did an accidently discovery.

But till now, I don't know were it comes from, that 6 soldiers were found in 2008????

The 6 soldiers were exhumed (found) now in 2010 (not 2008), because the plow unearthed some remains and leather earlier. I didn't heard the exact details yet. I did some calls, but nobody seems to know more about it.

The only thing is that at this stage, they are waiting for a decent reburial, for the decision of the British Goverment. The decision to proceed the identification. But this is not possible without DNA research. And I think that you know the policy about DNA...

If I'm not correct, this a well kept secret! Because, such rumours normally runs like fire here.

[Seadog]

Thanks Joris, the year 2008 is mentioned in Post No.2 of this topic. I as well as others appreciate your interest and the information which you have given us. The problem is in my view that without an official statement from the authorities here in the UK every bit of information which we can get only adds to the confusion. I have every respect for people such a Ramses and those responsible for the exhumation of the latest British soldiers and I think that they are doing their best in a fragmented and confusing situation that does little justice to the fallen and their descendants here in the UK.

Regards

Norman

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Damned, while replying and research on the internet, 2 new posts...

David, as far as I know; there is normally an procedure in Belgium when finding human remains; calling the Police.

But I don't know, with all the new archeologic laws, what the procedure exactly is, when the Police decides those remains are WW related. I only know that in that case, professional archeologists may "dig" on a spot believed to bury more remains.

[robins2]

I think Norman is right in saying that it has to start with transparency about finds; without that, having agreement about the scope of the identification process is pretty pointless.

Presumably on this website we have people who know what is meant to happen when a body is found (in the UK, France or Belgium). There has been a certain amount about this on the forum about who tells who etc., but I wonder can we go to a stage deeper?

Presumably in England (the country I live, so I start from here), if a body is found the coroner has to be informed (irrespective of how "old" the body is?). Doesn't he or she have to operate in the open - do they have to publish anything? Do we still have court reporters (usually young and inexperienced) hanging around hoping to find a story?

Do we have similar processes in France and Belgium (which I think is where most of us have focused our concerns) - or are their legal systems just too different?

Any coroners on the forum?

David

In Canada/US we have what they call the Freedom of Information Act, whereby any one can apply to any Govt. organization for information & they are bound by this act to comply, I don't know if you have a similar act/regulation there. The press us it constantly to dig up news stories, is it possible the Press can become involved in this case???

Bob R.

[Joris Ryckeboer]

There was a official press conference this morning.

Allready something released in the UK press or an official statement?

"that they are doing their best in a fragmented and confusing situation that does little justice to the fallen and their descendants here in the UK."

Agree, Norman!

[Seadog]

Given past experience Joris it will be extremely unlikely if any such press release will appear in the UK media, after all as nothing appeared about the 15 British Soldiers found in Beaucamps-Ligny last year then the chances of the latest discovery being published here is remote. Perhaps our Belgian friends will post such a press release on the forum.

Regards

Norman

[John_Hartley]

Some forum members may not be aware that the CWGC employ an “Exhumation Manager” whose responsibilities in my view are somewhat “shadowy” and ill-defined to say the least.

It'd perhaps be helpful if you could let us know what you understand her/his responsibilities to be.

[Seadog]

John the following is an extract from a post by a fellow forum member posted on another thread: I have highlighted the relevent text of interest, the source of this and the complete text is quoted on the thread which can be accessed by the following link (Post 106).

GWF Topic

Quote:

"In France, the Commission has an exhumation officer. He would be called to the site by the local authorities and carefully photograph and exhume the remains noting anything that might lead to a possible identification. The relevant Defence Attache is immediately notified and while the remains are held by us, any items that may be of use in identifying a casualty are passed to the relevant Defence Unit. These units (the British Army's is called PS4) are specialists in just this type of work. In recent years, they have also provided a forensic scientist who has visited our offices in France and Belgium and has proved extremely useful in identifying what would have been a number of otherwise difficult cases. Recent success include the identifications of Pte George Nugent and Lt Marcel Simon".

Norman

[robins2]

John the following is an extract from a post by a fellow forum member posted on another thread: I have highlighted the relevent text of interest, the source of this and the complete text is quoted on the thread which can be accessed by the following link (Post 106).

GWF Topic

Quote:

"In France, the Commission has an exhumation officer. He would be called to the site by the local authorities and carefully photograph and exhume the remains noting anything that might lead to a possible identification. The relevant Defence Attache is immediately notified and while the remains are held by us, any items that may be of use in identifying a casualty are passed to the relevant Defence Unit. These units (the British Army's is called PS4) are specialists in just this type of work. In recent years, they have also provided a forensic scientist who has visited our offices in France and Belgium and has proved extremely useful in identifying what would have been a number of otherwise difficult cases. Recent success include the identifications of Pte George Nugent and Lt Marcel Simon".

Norman

Just to add some more Misfortune?? I understand the workers who keep the CWGC sites maintained are now on strike???

Just to add some more Misfortune?? I understand the workers who keep the CWGC sites maintained are now on strike???

I should have added Belgium

[Seadog]

An interesting statistic:

GREAT WAR FORUM

Topic: BBC Documentary The First World War from Above

Started: 31st October

Comments: 137

Views: 3,829

Topic: 6 British Soldiers found in Belgium

Started: 5th November

Comments: 69

Views: 1,544

Well I found it interesting anyway

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

Hello Friends..I note with great Interest the Wall of SILENCE from the CWGC/MOD and some of our esteemed "Big Hitters" of the GWF from deigning to reply or indeed making any contribution to this and the BL-15 thread.I for one certainly am driven to despair by the Total Lack of Information and openess of the CWGC/MOD.

The Following Link makes for interesting reading.

http://www.cwgc.co.uk/

The FAQs Section certainly says it all for me.

[ianw]

An interesting statistic:

GREAT WAR FORUM

Topic: BBC Documentary “The First World War from Above

Started: 31st October

Comments: 137

Views: 3,829

Topic: 6 British Soldiers found in Belgium

Started: 5th November

Comments: 69

Views: 1,544

Well I found interesting anyway

Regards

Norman

I think the above just illustrates the understandable popularity of threads relating to Great War TV programmes. It's a current hot topic but will fade away in a few days.

The CW 6 and BL 15 - (soon to have the BCT 250 added?) are matters of continuing interest and great import. Quite how we address them and make sure that any influence that this Forumm has is deployed effectively is a matter for debate.

I am certainly concerned at the way the CWGC deals with newly discovered remains. How best to improve this situation - well, that's the rub.

[John_Hartley]

John the following is an extract from a post by a fellow forum member posted on another thread: I have highlighted the relevent text of interest,

Quote:

"In France, the Commission has an exhumation officer. He would be called to the site by the local authorities and carefully photograph and exhume the remains noting anything that might lead to a possible identification. Norman

Thanks for that. Based on the extract, we may have to disagree about our relative views about what is "shadowy & ill-defined".

[Seadog]

Well Ian I would have thought that if rants about a British TV programme are a “hot topic” then this one qualifies on many levels; Consider:-

Found in 2008

Exhumed in 2010

European press coverage

Video posted on the net

Apparent possibility of some identifications being made.

No media coverage in the UK

No mention by either CWGC or MOD

Official Press Conference 8th Nov (in Belgium)

CWGC “Exhumation Officer” what was his/her role in this case.

Those are just the main areas of concern and before someone points out that it is not the responsibility of the CWGC to publicise such discoveries then surely it is also not their responsibility to use their web site as some sort of quasi military history portal, the latest being the WW2 North African Campaign (see below).

CWGC

http://www.cwgc.org/northafrica/

Regards

Norman