6 British soldiers found in Comines-Warneton

[cdr]

:angry2:Do not forget that the Instituut for Veteranen only has two people on this

Carl

[Seadog]

The subject of the discovery and disinterment of found WW1 soldiers human remains has been the topic of discussion on the forum many times before and without doubt will be repeated in the future. The following questions infer no disrespect or criticism of any of the individuals involved and if anyone can provide the answers it will clarify a somewhat confusing situation.

What were the circumstances leading to the discovery of the remains

When were the UK authority(ies) MOD/CWGC informed

Was the CWGC Exhumation Officer involved with the disinterment

What artefacts were found with the remains

What identified the remains as British

Who gave the story to the Belgian Press

Why the secrecy regarding “what happened two years ago”

All these questions (and others) arise because the whole system surrounding the finding, notification and removal of soldier’s remains and associated artefacts is so fragmented and cloaked in a “veil of secrecy” by all those involved including the authorities. It is therefore very easy to form the opinion that such discoveries are not being undertaken in the best interest of the soldiers and in a manner which will give at least the possibility of a formal identification.

Norman

[PBI]

It always strikes me as very ODD that the Discovery of these Men,and the Previous BL-15 didnt get a Single mention in the British Media..Hmmmmmm...i wonder if the MOD are deliberately suppressing Information in the UK regarding the Discovery and interment of Remains from WW1 & WW2....I wonder.

[Yvonne H]

But why, why would they do that?

Money?

Regards,

Yvonne

[Seadog]

That is a fair question Yvonne, the necessarily long answer from my perspective is that such a conclusion can be drawn by consideration of the facts. For a period of years now there have been many instances of the remains of British soldiers remains being found on the battlefields due to building works, ploughing, road building and in some instances through deliberate excavation of the battlefields for mostly in the case of Flanders genuine emergency recovery reasons and unfortunately also for the making of TV documentaries etc.

From the reaction of the authorities in Britain, the CWGC and MOD, there have been many instances of which two are discussed on this topic where the continental press have covered the finds in detail but NO British newspaper or other UK media has done so. This I can only put down to the lack of any press release being distributed by the MOD. From the CWGC perspective again there have been many instances of burials of the found soldiers remains taking place on the Western Front without any information on same being made available to the public, this despite assurances that such information would be placed in the public domain.

I sincerely believe that this total lack of information and transparency from the UK authorities is indeed a deliberate policy, adopted primarily to obviate any interested parties, possible relatives of the fallen, historical researchers etc from questioning the efforts or lack of same of being expended in attempting to identify the fallen. This in my opinion has been exacerbated by the techniques used at Fromelles in particular DNA matching which has proved so successful and no doubt very expensive to undertake.

The whole question of the finding of the fallen is surrounded by a fog of confusing and sparse information, just read some of the posts on this particular topic. The sad thing is that these soldiers were once husbands, sons, brothers and uncles of our British countrymen and in my opinion they deserve better treatment when discovered and certainly a more open attitude from all concerned in sharing all available information with the rest of us, surely this is the very least we should expect.

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

But why, why would they do that?

Money?

Regards,

Yvonne

Sadly Yvonne,Money is the Major factor that seems to govern the proceedings,and IMHO if the MOD/CWGC could have schmoozed their way out of the vast expense accumulated in the Fromelles Project i am sure that they would have done so..it was only the fact that the Australian Media gave the Fromelles discovery maximum exposure,that we now have a new Cemetery at Fromelles.

[Yvonne H]

We're in 2010 now, we can call ourselves reasonably civilized.

We have the knowledge and technique to investigate, and now it's just a case of money?

This is heartbreaking.

2 years ago there was the finding of a German soldier in a garden in Zonnebeke, he had a change to be identified, the findings with him pointed in a certain direction.

Well: nobody cared, gouverment, Volksbund, nobody.

http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/viewtopic.php?t=16710

And now this finding and previous findings...

Nothing.

Cynical, now we have the technique but there's no money and no interest.

Is it a sign that this war is slowly fading out of memory?

Last commeroration-100 years and that's it?

I don't want to be impolite or anything but it's really heartbreaking.

Regards,

Yvonne

[PBI]

Sadly Yvonne,the MOD think that after nearly 90 Years these Men Simply dont COUNT...Out of Sight and Out of Mind.

[Seadog]

Yvonne, I share your concerns regarding the subject of the treatment of the human remains of those who gave their lives for their Country and have every right to be treated in a manner which recognises their sacrifice, Whilst I have no doubt that such finds are treated with respect by the authorities there must be a more open and transparent devolvement of the available information both through the official media and such forums as this one. I have posted a request on the forum for any available figures relating to the current number of missing WW1 soldiers in the Flanders region.

I am grateful that members have responded and this is from PJA (Phil):

Norman, I've just come across an interesting analysis by the Belgian enthusiast Franky Bostyn, who has written a book about Passchendaele and Tyne Cot.

He writes :"that in Belgium 102,497 Commonwealth war dead have a known grave, and a further 102,336 are missing...note the almost exactly even split. Of the missing dead, 48,555 are interred as partly identified or unidentified: just under half of the missing. ... so the ratios for Flanders are very similar to those of Picardy"

The figures cited by Bostyn probably include 1939-45 as well, but these would account for a tiny fraction, since 101,792 of the 102,336 missing appertain to 1914-1918.

He concludes:

"For every four Commonwealth dead there are two buried with an identified headstone, one with an unidentified headstone, who is commemorated on a memorial to the missing and one who is in fact still missing on the battlefield and only commemorated on a memorial".

From this I calculate that there are almost 54,000 commonwealth soldiers still laying in Flanders Fields and notwithstanding the proportion whose remains are totally fragmented that would still leave many thousands who await an act of fate which will grant them the decent burial that they rightly deserve plus perhaps also in some cases the dignity of a name. Given the scale of the numbers involved such discoveries that we are discussing on this topic will continue for the foreseeable future, a daunting prospect indeed.

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

Seadog and Co..i was pondering the Subject of the 6 New or not so new discoveries,and was asking the questions.

1) When was the CWGC made aware of these Mens remains being discovered.

2) Why the 2 Year gap between discovery and information being placed in the Public Domain.

3) where were the remains kept prior to their current place of residence.

4) Why all the Secrecy up until now ?

5) Just how many sets of Remains have been discovered in F & F in the last few years,that have been quietly and furtively tucked away by CWGC/MOD without any Members of the Public being aware ?

6) What happened to the sets of Remains found by De Diggers whilst they were in existence ?.How many sets of remains did they Find >

[CROONAERT]

2 years ago there was the finding of a German soldier in a garden in Zonnebeke, he had a change to be identified, the findings with him pointed in a certain direction.

Well: nobody cared, gouverment, Volksbund, nobody.

Yvonne...in defence of the VdK, they are totally self-funding (as opposed to the CWGC ) and have been forced to almost 'draw a line' under the WW1 dead of France and Flanders due to the thousands of discoveries of 1939-45 that they have to contend with in the east...identifications of a Fromelles scale have been happening - away from the press - many times a year for the past decade here. With them, its a case of priorities more than anything untoward... and I agree totally with their priorities here as even many of the wives and girlfriends and brothers and sisters (etc)...people who would have been old enough to have remembered them while they were still alive... are still around. Far better that identifications could be found for these people than simply for descendants who were born years after their deaths and never knew them ,I feel.

Dave

[Seadog]

PBI On the subject of the remains found by the “Diggers” at Boezinghe this is the info supplied to me by a fellow forum member:

British: 91

German: 83

French: 33

A total of 207

And from the CWGC Ypres Office:

The following British remains found at the Boezinge site were interred at Cement House War Cemetery, Langemark.

Plot 1 Row H Graves 5-16 (12)

Plot 2 Row AA Graves 1-17 (17)

Plot 2 Row BB Graves 1-17 (17)

Plot 2 Row CC Graves 2-15 (14)

Plot 3 Row AA Graves 11-16 (6)

Previously the total number quoted is 91 sets of remains and the above total is 66 therefore either multiple remains were interred in individual graves and/or further burials were made in other cemeteries as this figure is 25 short of the number of finds or the numbers are wrong.

Please note that absolutely NO mention is made of these discoveries and burials on the CWGC individual war cemetery database, why does that not surprise me?.

Norman

[PBI]

Many thanks for the Clarification Norman.I note that in Martin Middlebrooks Book "The Somme Battlefields" he gives an interesting breakdown on the "Missing" Versus KUG Headstones and Names on Memorials.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2654/4087359008_1e991154fb_o.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-people/cemeteries/1027-work-spva-cwgc.html&usg=__lZiHizBa3GnSZGnITo6XNU_Qm7Y=&h=480&w=360&sz=51&hl=en&start=1&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=nOeVV7AIoO8YVM:&tbnh=129&tbnw=97&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfrank%2Bharold%2Bking%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1W1GGHP_en%26biw%3D1259%26bih%3D571%26tbs%3Disch:1

I notice with some trepidation that the WFA mentions that the Royal Fusiliers who Could not be Identified were Buried "IN A QUIET CEREMONY"..well i certainly never heard any mention of that Ceremony,and i did attend the Funerals of the 2 who were identified...how many QUIET Ceremonies have gone unreported over the last 20 years or so...many i will wager.

[Seadog]

PBI, A "Quiet" ceremony involving 24 individual interments?, well that is a new one on me. I know that given the subject matter I do not expect a reply but does ANYONE on this forum know where those 24 are buried?. Unfortunatley all these examples are just indicative of the complete and utter confusion, secrecy and misinformation that surrounds the the whole subject of the recently discovered fallen. A very sad state of affairs indeed and one that does not do justice to those who died and to those who today are deprived of the information that should be firmly in the public domain as a matter of fact.

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

Sadly Norman,i think the BL 15 and the Comines 6 are heading down the same road...too whit they will be held in situ for an unknown amount of time then Quickly and quietely tucked away as anonymous unknowns in such and such a Cemetery.after any interest has waned..maybe the CWGC would publish details in it Newletter well after the event ?..dont hold your breath.

[geluveld]

Yvonne...in defence of the VdK, they are totally self-funding (as opposed to the CWGC ) and have been forced to almost 'draw a line' under the WW1 dead of France and Flanders due to the thousands of discoveries of 1939-45 that they have to contend with in the east...identifications of a Fromelles scale have been happening - away from the press - many times a year for the past decade here. With them, its a case of priorities more than anything untoward... and I agree totally with their priorities here as even many of the wives and girlfriends and brothers and sisters (etc)...people who would have been old enough to have remembered them while they were still alive... are still around. Far better that identifications could be found for these people than simply for descendants who were born years after their deaths and never knew them ,I feel.

Dave

Dave,

I have found that German soldier, it was on 02-09-2008.

only by the beginning of 2010 he was transferred from the Belgian Wargraves Service to the Volksbund. Reason why it took so long? We asked the question several times to the Belgian Army. NO reasonable answer was given. The remark made by another user that they only have 2 men in that service is not an excuse, they only have things like that to look after.

I am a current serving armourer-corporal in the Belgian Air Force, so I know how the Belgian Army works...

Together with some other dedicated people we looked to the photos I took while excavating the remains, and on the EKM I found the birth date and some letters from the town he was born in. Together with others we managed to find the town he was born in.

We have told this to Belgian Army first, who did absolutely nothing with that info. So we went to the Volksbund, and after numerous emails we managed to get them moving, and they emailed the town we pointed out.

So far no further details on that matter....

I have tried another source in the Volksbund to give us a hand in identifying the bloke, but it seems to me that if one find's a German soldier, they somehow count on the fact that enthousiasts will try to identify him themselves, and that they only have to put a lign through his name in the missing-list.

I understand that due to money some cases can and will be difficult to solve, but we gave them except the name (of which I made out several letters of the name on the very fraile EKM) all the necessary info they need to do an identification...

fingers crossed thus...

cheers

Ramses

[Seadog]

I hope members will forgive me posting yet again on this topic but I would like to thank Ramses for contributing to this debate by adding the views and experiences of one who has actually found the remains of a WW1 soldier in this case a member of the German Army. Whilst the details of the difficulties that he has experienced should come should come as little surprise to us Ramses deserves a vote of thanks for the efforts that he and no doubt his colleagues have and are expending in attempting to identify the soldier.

May I ask an obvious question, where are the remains at present? I presume that if not already given a burial then they will be eventually interred in Langemark German War Cemetery. Forum members may be interested to learn that in Britain there is time limit of 2 years from the date of the archaeological excavation of human remains until they are required by law to be reburied and I trust that the British MOD comply with this.

Norman

[PBI]

I wonder what happened to these remains of 3 French Sodiers that were discovered at Fricourt ?

[CROONAERT]

I have found that German soldier, it was on 02-09-2008.... ... I have tried another source in the Volksbund to give us a hand in identifying the bloke, but it seems to me that if one find's a German soldier, they somehow count on the fact that enthousiasts will try to identify him themselves, and that they only have to put a lign through his name in the missing-list....

Hi Ramses.

Is this the German soldier you mentioned to me about last year?

What you say really doesn't surprise me and only emphasises what I mentioned about the VdK's 'priorities' in the east. To show the flip-side (and to illustrate the complete opposite of the lack of interest they have shown in your WW1 Westfront find) , a good few years ago, while I had a few hours to kill in Volgograd, I caught a taxi to some of the WW2 battle-sites of the area. The taxi driver, upon realising my interest, opened his glove-box revealing it to be full of excavated (WW2) EKMs of which I felt 'duty bound' (ahem! ) to obtain a good selection. Upon my return to the UK, I was in contact with the 'appropriate' German authorities as regards the possibility of identifying the original owners of these tags which was followed by 12 months of what can only be described as 'bombardment' from the Vdk as they pulled out all stops in an attempt to learn from me the location ( almost to centimeter perfect exactness - supplying me with maps, aerial photographs, grid references of possible burial sites, etc hoping to find the spots). Obviously, I couldn't help out (unfortunately), but I certainly couldn't fault their eagerness to find the missing bodies.

That all happened back in the early 1990's, but the vast majority of their limited resources are now aimed in the same areas. WW1 and , especially, the western front have simply been forced into the back seat. I'm not saying that they're ignoring the WW1 remains (because they certainly aren't) , but things here can take a lot longer and are certainly lower down on the list of priorities. I feel (fear?) that they may even be aiming at some form of 'closure' in this area (maybe temporarily).

Dave

[Aurel Sercu]

May I ask an obvious question, where are the remains at present? I presume that if not already given a burial then they will be eventually interred in Langemark German War Cemetery.

Norman

Norman,

As mentioned above in one of the first postings, and if this information is correct, the remains are in the "military base in Langemark-Poelkapelle". That must be DOVO (Bomb Disposal Unit of the Belgian Army). (At least that is where the remains were taken that we (Diggers) found. Originally they were taken to the Police (Rijkswacht) HQ in Ypres, but that was changed approx. 2003.)

I don't think that they will be buried in the German Cemetery at Langemark ! Remains that are found of German soldiers are reburied there (Kameradengrab), not British remains. These are reburied in a CWGC cemetery. It used to be in Cement House Cemetery (Langemark), which is an "open cemetery". But in the past years there has been a tendency to rebury the remains in a cemetery near the location where they had been found.

Aurel

[Seadog]

Thanks for the clarification Aurel, I was referring only to the single German as detailed in Ramses post and not the 21 British (15 BL + 6 Belgium) who are now stored in boxes awaiting a decent and proper burial.

Best Regards

Norman

[geluveld]

Norman,

The German soldier has been transferred from the Belgian Army to the Volksbund beginning this year. That was allready nearly 1.5years after the discovery of the remains.

At the moment we are +2years after the discovery, 27months to be exact...

The remains were kept in the Poelkapelle barracks from october 2008 untill early 2010, and then transferred. Because it took so long to hear something about the remains, we started asking questions to both MOD and another minister (who is in charge of tourism, and thus has something to say in files like this). The minister answered to us, quite sure about his case, that the remains were most likely not identifiable. This being BEFORE the remains were handed over to the Volksbund. Talking about speaking before his turn

Plus, at that given time, we had allready his date of birth and place of birth...

The MOD didn't bother to answer back, but suddenly a few weeks after the question was sent, I received a letter saying the the remains were transferred to the Volksbund and that the Belgian Army couldn't provide any more info about the case. (surprise surprise....)

Now I have contacted the Volksbund again, and they have now contacted the native town of which is marked on the EKM. Hopefully the Russians didn't destroy the whole birth register from that era while passing there in 1945...

We've put quite a lot of effort in the whole case, from retrieving the remains up to all the info given so far, so fingers crossed for a positive outcome...

@ Dave, yes exactly, that's the remains I was talking to you about... Still isn't solved thus...

Cheers

Ramses

[geluveld]

For the record, a quick history of the discovery of that German soldier

I live near the old railway line in Zonnebeke. In september2008 the council decided to make a new road on that bank, and next to it, to make up a new cycle lane. That started on 01/09/2008.

Being interested in the war, plus the whole thing was constructed at the end of my garden, I kept a keen eye on the whole construction.

First day the top layer of 25cm was scraped of the side of the embankment. That evening and the following morning it rained fairly heavy.

In the late afternoon of the 2nd of september I walked over the site to see if there was anything unearthed. Quite a lot of unfired 77mm shells (that certified the old story of an ammunitionstrain that flipped over in 1917) and some rusty bits.

While walking, I saw the top part of a thigh bone protruding from the side of the embankment.

The man handling the digging machine passed there at that very moment and warned me that if I would stop the constructing for 'those old bones', his boss would sue me for the loss of money and time.

If I wanted them, I should take them in the evening, otherwise he would 'take care of them in the morning'. Needless to say that that proces would involve the digging machine and a large hole...

I thus decided to excavate the remains as secure as possible, even with lamps (as it was allready dark at that time). The remains were in situ as he was hit.

He must have stood on the top of the embankment when being hit, by fragments of a large calibre shell, as the skull was reduced to bits and the hip bone was also fragmented.

He was most likely cut in half while falling face forward, because I found him folded double, with his spine against his calves.

While gradually excating the chest area, I found fragments of his EKM. Which was in very bad condition, but was brought in the house quickly and lightly cleaned with just water and the letters filled with ink to let the remaining inscriptions light up. And that immediatley brougth the date of birth to light.

The EKM was of the pattern 1915 (Dave?), with the same info on both halves with a line in the middle to tear in half.

I also had a witness with me, to make sure that after the declaration of the remains, I had someone that could testify that I handled them with all the respect, and that all the side-finds were handed over as well.

I placed the remains under a damp blanket, to keep them moist. And notified persons who could help with the declaration. With the transfer from me to the Belgian Army all the remains, side-finds and pictures I took of the items and remains were transferred. Also a visit to the site of the find was done, so the service could make sure that everything was retrieved and nothing stayed behind.

And then the whole story on the identification started...

Cheers

Ramses

[CROONAERT]

The EKM was of the pattern 1915 (Dave?), with the same info on both halves with a line in the middle to tear in half.

Post - (November) 1916. First issues would have been seen at the frontline circa Dec 1916/Jan 1917 and re-issues to (some) already serving soldiers from the early Spring of 1917.

Dave

[geluveld]

Post - (November) 1916. First issues would have been seen at the frontline circa Dec 1916/Jan 1917 and re-issues to (some) already serving soldiers from the early Spring of 1917.

Dave

Thanks mate,

that could comply with the presumed 1917 date of death, during the 3rd Battle of Ypres