6 British soldiers found in Comines-Warneton

[Seadog]

See below for my email to CWGC Northern Europe and their reply received today. Please note that they have ignored some of my quite innocent questions but at least they have replied which is a lot better that CWGC UK normally do. Please also note the BOLD text (my doing).

Norman

EMAIL TO CWGC

Dear Sir/Madam I understand from contacts in Belgium that the remains of 6 British soldiers have been found in the Comines-Warneton area. I also understand that these remains were actually found in 2008 and only recently have been excavated. Can you please confirm my information together with the circumstances surrounding the discovery and in addition tell me whether your "Exhumation Officer" was involved in the removal of the remains plus finally please confirm that the CWGC now have said remains in safe keeping.

REPLY FROM CWGC

Dear

Thank you for your email below.

I can confirm that the remains of the six soldiers are currently in safe custody with the Belgian Ministry of Defence and will be handed over to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in due course.

With kind regards

Christine Connerty-Ketels

Administration Supervisor

Commonwealth War Graves Commission

Elverdingsestraat 82

B - 8900 Ieper

Tel: +3257223644

[dfaulder]

Their Name Liveth For Evermore

?

[cdr]

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/mediatheek/programmas/journaal/2.13082/2.13083/1.901794

This is a link to the Flemish tv website with a film on this topic. The archaelogist says it was a proper burial (bodies were wrapped in their ponchos) Two soldiers are from the Lancashire fusiliers, two are from the Kings Own, no regiment is mentioned for the the last two.

Carl

[Seadog]

Thanks Carl your information is appreciated. Do you know whether any of the soldiers can be identified by name?, no details required just a yes or no will suffice.

Norman

[Robert Missinne]

Some info and pictures on here.

[Seadog]

Thanks for the link Robert, may I ask a genuine question to you and other contributors with regard to the excavations that brought to light the 6 British soldiers. What was the original purpose of the excavation as I understand that such things are subject to stringent controls in Belgium?

I quote from the website link:

In 2008, Mr. Roelens began exploratory excavations of this historic battlefield which dates from the very earliest months of the First World War. Now, two years later, he has been able to successfully remove all of the remains.

If anyone can throw further light on this aspect I will be obliged plus were any other artifacts found as well as the human remins?.

Regards

Norman

[Steven Broomfield]

Small piece in today's Tottygraph Here

[Seadog]

Thanks Steven, I see that the article was sourced from Belgium and still no public response from the MOD/CWGC. I like this bit "Following a British request, the six bodies will be handed over to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission". . I wonder what part the CWGC "Exhumation Officer" had to play in the retrievals?.It would have been nice to see the great British press also reporting the discovery of the BL-15, perhaps that is too much to ask

Regards

Norman

[cdr]

Thanks Carl your information is appreciated. Do you know whether any of the soldiers can be identified by name?, no details required just a yes or no will suffice.

Norman

I currently have no information on that topic

[vegetius]

I was in Belgium when the six soldiers were located and to the best of my knowledge they were being portrayed as a chance find and nothing more was said. I use the term 'portrayed' as the only information comes from open sources and as we know the press is always accurate! I know that the Belgians are very keen on the law being followed and applied where remains are concerned. That does not prevent developers or individuals who cut corners or ignore the correct and decent path. These people are both reprehensible and illegal and we can only hope that they are arrested and held accountable for their actions and dealt with accordingly.

The press is not making a big thing of this because to them it is not a big thing. To us, the find of one soldier is not only interesting but important and big news. Sorry but the rest of the world does not share that opinion, (I didn't make the world, I just live in it), or at least the press does not perceive it as such.

I think the reply from the CWGC says everything. The remains are secure and will be forensicaly evaluated at a later date. I am sure that all organisations involved did the best possible job and that every effort will be made to try to identify the remains and to give these men the burial that they deserve. As for the dissemination of information; Priviledged information is only made available to those who need to know, that's the way of the world. I'm afraid as normal members of the public that we are not applicable to be singled out for special treatment, no matter how much we think we should be. As most are aware these priviledges are not something you request but more something that is bestowed upon an individual if required. The lack of further information is probably due to there being no more information available or that can be disseminated at this time!

The CWGC as with all government organisations are accountable to numerous official bodies, but as long as they are carrying out their business as mandated then that's it. The fact that they will say no more on this subject is a credit to them as it shows their respect for the confidentiallity that is owed to these men and their next of kin. I'm sure that if anyone knows a better way of doing business (within the constraints imposed ) then they would be glad to listen, but I'm sure that they are constantly looking for ways to improve themselves.

I realise that having a go at the CWGC seems to have become something of a sport but in all my dealings with them they have always been both professional and efficient. As it is unlikely that anything will be forthcoming on this subject for some time, I shall now return to looking at the lambasting of the BBC for producing such awful documentries, as I think everything about this subject (for the time being at least) has been said.

These are my thoughts on the subject and are made with the utmost respect to all concerned. Leaving these good people to conduct their jobs is the best thing we can do. If anyone wishes to pertition the Press as to their lack of interest then please feel free to go ahead. As commercial organisations I'm sure that if anyone can see a way of increasing their coverage then they would be interested, but appealing to them always appears an exercise in futility to me.

I think another thread on how to help and support the CWGC might be an excellent idea (does one exist?). I can see that in this difficult time our support and help to them is more important than ever. You never know if we supported them enough, that hard won status of formal recognition might be gained.

[Seadog]

A very interesting post, unfortunately it does not address the central core of the discussion here and I am honestly at a complete loss to understand some of the comments that you have made.

The press is not making a big thing of this because to them it is not a big thing. To us, the find of one soldier is not only interesting but important and big news.

I would assert that the reason that the press is not making a big thing is incorrect as the Daily Telegraph newspaper in the UK uses the story as a major part of its Remembrance Day report. By the way the discovery of the remains of British Soldiers is also big news to me and others here in the UK.

As for the dissemination of information; Privileged information is only made available to those who need to know, that's the way of the world. I'm afraid as normal members of the public that we are not applicable to be singled out for special treatment.

I must admit that is an amazing statement and I for one do not consider the details of the discovery, exhumation and subsequent treatment of the remains of British soldiers as in any way being privileged information.

I realise that having a go at the CWGC seems to have become something of a sport,

Your description but I would not describe any constructive criticism of the CWGC as being Sport.

You do not seem to have quite understood the comments relating to the press and in this case the UK press for their apparent lack of interest. The reason for this is that no press releases in respect of either the BL-15 or the Comines 6 have to my knowledge been issued by the responsible authority here in the UK i.e. the MOD (Ministry of Defence) the only press coverage in the UK at this point in time has already been mentioned and is sourced from Belgium not Britain.

You may like to know that pressure from certain members of this very forum resulted in the CWGC actually notifying us (the public) of the details of the interments of the discovered soldiers in the war cemeteries via their website, something that had not happened before and was therefore completely unknown by the general public. I view this as a good thing.

Obviously we will disagree on the majority of the points discussed on this thread and as you say As it is unlikely that anything will be forthcoming on this subject for some time, I shall now return to looking at the lambasting of the BBC for producing such awful documentaries, so I wish you well in this.

Regards

Norman

[dfaulder]

Whilst I have much respect for the CWGC / MOD, I do think that they are a little behind the times:

• They are funded by taxpayers (in the case of CWGC - of multiple countries), so there has to be some level of accountability and openness. The MOD announce the death of current servicemen/women, they publish dates of repatriations and most funerals get some media coverage (any restriction being probably due the good sense of the media, than to lack of information by the MOD), so why the secrecy about the remains of soldiers killed 90+ years ago?
• Means of identification have dramatically changed in the last decade or so; to ignore them, without apparent explanation or justification, is hard to excuse - it is as if less care was being taken than in the immediate post-war years.

I hope many who have no direct relationship to the missing of the Great War would find the above considerations sufficient to expect greater attempts to be made to identify remains that are found and whilst I would not want to see this done in the light of "mass publicity" (such as a "game show format" - "all those with DNA sequence xxxx step forward. I'm sorry it's not your relative"), I would not want this done in secret - I suspect that if you had secrecy finding relatives for DNA matching would become very difficult. Our coroner's system is not totally secret, why is this one cloaked in invisibility?

For those of us related to the missing of the Great War, the idea that, unknown to us, the remains of our relative might be found, but then quietly buried as an unknown (and effectively lost again), is very unsettling.

David

[NigelS]

For those of us related to the missing of the Great War, the idea that, unknown to us, the remains of our relative might be found, but then quietly buried as an unknown (and effectively lost again), is very unsettling.

Well put David, I couldn't agree more. Although unlikely, I'd like to hope that, should his remains ever be discovered, a very robust effort would be made to allow my grandfather to be re-interred with his name known; it's the very least that any serviceman, having made the ultimate sacrifice by giving his life for his country, deserves.

NigelS

[Seadog]

I think that as a matter of principle DNA samples should be taken from individual sets of remains if possible and each original location should be given a GPS reference. I also sincerely believe that a full report should be made of the circumstances of the finds plus a list of artifacts found and the details of any attempts at identification. The report should be available for public perusal following the reburial of the remains. I see all of the above being the minimum procedures that should be followed with each and every set of the remains of British and Commonwealth soldiers found on the WW1 battlefields.

None of us know what developments may be available in the future and we must ensure that enough primary evidence is retained should the occasion arise. I take it as read that the MOD should make much more use of the wealth of expertise that exists within forums such as this in collating information that may lead ultimately to identification of the fallen.

Finally the MOD must act in a more open and transparent way with the notification of the discovery of the fallen as the present situation as evidenced by the Flanders 6 is not acceptable.When you consider that the Belgian press had covered the story, a video was uploaded to the net, details were available on a website and a press conference was held, again in Belgium, all of this without any details made available by the MOD/CWGC here in the UK.

Regards

Norman

[Didier]

Dear ladies and gents, this whole discussion is running out of hand and I would like to get some things straight.

I'm responsable for the Belgian War Graves and this is how everything happened and stands.

Some small fragments were discovered by members of a historical society in december 2007 on the surface of a farmers field. These members can't start digging without permission of a) the owner of the field and in this case the government of Wallonie.This is the law, wether you like it or not. This is to prevent people to start digging where ever they like. Also remember these people are also familymen and do have jobs. So in April 2008 they exhumed a body and called the police. What else should you do if you find a dead body, pretty logical no? And still everything according to Belgian law. Police came, took the body AND the artifacts in safety but stopped the society peopole from digging any further. Why? Because the police wasn't aware of what the correct procedure is in this matter. Not supprisingly, this doesn't happen every day in their area. In Belgium there is only in West-Flanders province a detailed procedure for this kind of incident. Why didn't anyone call the CWGC? Because they have no authority in this matter at all! This is Belgium by the way, not the UK or France. The archeologists need to exhume a body before thinking about a nationality. You can hardly call in every nation who has lost men in this country. One thing was for sure, there were more bodies under the field. Then the police called us (Belgian MOD) and we took the body and artifacts with us to a nearby army base. We explained to procedure to them and as soon as they realised that the archeologists did it the correct way, they gave the green light. But, by then the farmer had a new crop on his field. Remember, that's what he is living of!

The mayor of Comines-Warneton wanted to see and hear eveybody concerned before going any further so a meeting with all actors was planned. Ever tried to get about 7 or 8 officials from all over the country at one table? Believe me, that takes a lot of time. In the meanwhile, we (Belgian War Graves) changed from MOD to a semi-civilian organism. At last in spring 2010 this meeting was held (mayor, police; CWGC, Belgian War Graves, Government of Wallonie, the historical society, etc...) Everything was ok but the archeologists needed to ask for a new permission to dig, the permit was now outdated . When this new permit came the field was again in use so the society people needed to wait again untill the field was cleared. This was in october the case. No, they didn't wait fot november 11th to be close, they had to wait untill the field was free! Then 4 more bodies were exhumed under my supervision and given over to the police. Later that week I took the bodies and artefacts over from the police and took them to the army base. At last on October 30, the exhumation from a week before being stopped because of bad weather and darkness, the last of six bodies was exhumed and again, same procedure, police took the body and handed it over to me with the artifacts. CWGC was notified as soon as the first body was exhumed and cooperated very well and according to Belgian law. The six bodies and artefacts are now in the nearby army base untill CWGC gives us the word and then we hand over the bodies to be buried.

Concerning identification: 2 bodies belong to the Kings Own Royal Lancasters, 2 to the Lancashire Fusiliers and the other 2 were identified as British because British uniform buttons were found on them. Regarding further identification: only British MOD and not CWGC, I repeat NOT CWGC are responsible.

Hoping this explanation served its course,

Didier

By the way, all this above has been said in public but not all of this has reached the big public

[truthergw]

It is always good to have the facts. Thanks for that detailed description of what happened, when and why.

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Thanks for your first hand account, Didier.

Those facts were a mystery and it's good you told them.

Sometimes, I can't follow anymore, the changing of our proper laws, procedures, transitions...

And! What you wrote in your last sentence is really true!

Greetings!

[Yvonne H]

Thanks Didier for your answer.

Regards,

Yvonne

[dfaulder]

>><<

By the way, all this above has been said in public but not all of this has reached the big public

Didier,

Many thanks for your post - it is good to know that someone from the Belgian War Graves organisation is on this forum.

Your final sentence is of interest - what is the procedure in Belgium for announcing or publicising the finding of a body? (My UK fuelled imagination expects some form of announcement, if only to enable someone to come forward and say "my neighbour disappeared 50 years ago and has never been heard of since - could this be him"?) Or is the procedure short-cut because the Belgian Police were certain that these were WW1 remains (and therefore unlikely to be conventional "victims of crime")?

Thanks

David

[SteveMarsdin]

I presume from the number of your post Didier, that you specifically joined the Forum to update us in this matter. Many thanks indeed for both taking the trouble and the work that you do. I am sure that many aren't aware of the complexities of the Belgian federal system

[robins2]

Dear ladies and gents, this whole discussion is running out of hand and I would like to get some things straight.

I'm responsable for the Belgian War Graves and this is how everything happened and stands.

Some small fragments were discovered by members of a historical society in december 2007 on the surface of a farmers field. These members can't start digging without permission of a) the owner of the field and in this case the government of Wallonie.This is the law, wether you like it or not. This is to prevent people to start digging where ever they like. Also remember these people are also familymen and do have jobs. So in April 2008 they exhumed a body and called the police. What else should you do if you find a dead body, pretty logical no? And still everything according to Belgian law. Police came, took the body AND the artifacts in safety but stopped the society peopole from digging any further. Why? Because the police wasn't aware of what the correct procedure is in this matter. Not supprisingly, this doesn't happen every day in their area. In Belgium there is only in West-Flanders province a detailed procedure for this kind of incident. Why didn't anyone call the CWGC? Because they have no authority in this matter at all! This is Belgium by the way, not the UK or France. The archeologists need to exhume a body before thinking about a nationality. You can hardly call in every nation who has lost men in this country. One thing was for sure, there were more bodies under the field. Then the police called us (Belgian MOD) and we took the body and artifacts with us to a nearby army base. We explained to procedure to them and as soon as they realised that the archeologists did it the correct way, they gave the green light. But, by then the farmer had a new crop on his field. Remember, that's what he is living of!

The mayor of Comines-Warneton wanted to see and hear eveybody concerned before going any further so a meeting with all actors was planned. Ever tried to get about 7 or 8 officials from all over the country at one table? Believe me, that takes a lot of time. In the meanwhile, we (Belgian War Graves) changed from MOD to a semi-civilian organism. At last in spring 2010 this meeting was held (mayor, police; CWGC, Belgian War Graves, Government of Wallonie, the historical society, etc...) Everything was ok but the archeologists needed to ask for a new permission to dig, the permit was now outdated . When this new permit came the field was again in use so the society people needed to wait again untill the field was cleared. This was in october the case. No, they didn't wait fot november 11th to be close, they had to wait untill the field was free! Then 4 more bodies were exhumed under my supervision and given over to the police. Later that week I took the bodies and artefacts over from the police and took them to the army base. At last on October 30, the exhumation from a week before being stopped because of bad weather and darkness, the last of six bodies was exhumed and again, same procedure, police took the body and handed it over to me with the artifacts. CWGC was notified as soon as the first body was exhumed and cooperated very well and according to Belgian law. The six bodies and artefacts are now in the nearby army base untill CWGC gives us the word and then we hand over the bodies to be buried.

Concerning identification: 2 bodies belong to the Kings Own Royal Lancasters, 2 to the Lancashire Fusiliers and the other 2 were identified as British because British uniform buttons were found on them. Regarding further identification: only British MOD and not CWGC, I repeat NOT CWGC are responsible.

Hoping this explanation served its course,

Didier

By the way, all this above has been said in public but not all of this has reached the big public

well done, thank you for your input, I;m sure a lot of us are much more the wiser now that the procedures are put forward.

wish you well in your work

regards

Bob r.

[Didier]

Good morning where ever you are.

Just to add a little bit more on the issue. There are +/- 10 warcasualties found in Belgium each year. We don't we go public on those? Well, because there isn't anything to tell really.

What can you see? "This morning half a skull and a leg were found near Ieper. Two buttons tell us that these remains were British" Rest asure, we almost never find complete bodies!

This will not even be posted in the smallest local newspaper because to the people of Ieper this is almost daily business.There is no procedure to go public with these findings. In this case we did because it was a major finding and we discovered the two regiments they belonged to.

Concerning Germans the case is even worse. Early this year we gave the remains of six bodies to the German authorities, at least one of them (the one Ramses found) had a good chance of being identified. But unrtill now: nothing. I don't even know if they are buried yet. But keep in mind that we, and no one else for that matter, are to interfere with German law as the law on privacy in Germany is very strickt. Maybe they did contacted the family and maybe the family doesn't want it to be public. Its their good right. It already happened to us before that a family didn't want to know about it and we as officials have to agree on this. In the near future six more Germans (WW2) will be handed over. Four of them are known by name or at least by serialnumber and regiment but it is not up to us to anounce these details.

Sincerely,

Didier

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Thanks Didier for the addition.

I see that after, the transition of BWG to the Institute and the new procedures/laws for finding remains (in every region of Belgium now), everything is in fact back on track! That's good news. Also, after the pres meeting, nothing of the details given were spread. As you said.

But I understand it, it will remain a difficult job at BWG to do well for everyone, because of the restrictions as privacy, goodwill, funds, paperwork, ...

Well done!

Hope to meet you once at the barracks!

[Seadog]

Many thanks Didier for posting such comprehensive details of the discovery of the 6 soldiers and the additional information that you have taken the trouble to share with us, I do hope that you continue to contribute to this subject on the forum as your input is invaluable.

From a British perspective however the situation still prevails that the responsible authorities and I include the CWGC in this, have not and do not see the need to place the news of the discovery of British WW1 soldiers in the public domain as a general principle. Consider this, if it were not for this forum and people such as you we here in the UK would be none the wiser about the finding of our countrymen.

You say that the CWGC are not involved in the identification of the fallen, I agree with you to some extent but certainly in the case of those found in France their Exhumation Officer appears to have a key role to play in both the exhumation, recording and identification of the fallen (See Posts 61 and 69).

The sad fact is that that in the case of the Beaucamps-Ligny 15 and the Flanders 6 if we were not members of this forum then we would be unaware of the discoveries and worse still if the attitude of the CWGC regarding the notification of the reburials of such finds is as fragmentary as it has been in the past, then the soldiers would disappear and no record of their discovery and burial would exist, certainly one that is available to the British public. If you want an example of this then see Post 37.

Regards

Norman

[Ogilwy]

Thank you Didier a fantastic post clearing up everything. I've just got back home from Flanders today having been carrying out some archaeology there and obviously heard several rumours about this. It's fantastic to get it first hand.

The identification will be down to forensic anthropologists and sceintists I would imagine. As they don't come cheap they would be brought in on a case by case basis and carryout the research required to give a positive ID. Hopefully Isotopic analysis and DNA will confirm location of birth and relatives but determining the date of death / regiment eliminates a huge number of missing and is the first vital step.

I'm sure that after all the investigations are over the results and story will be fascinating, and the fact that four of the mens Regiments are already known bodes well for an ID. It would be fantastic to have relatives present as was possible at Plug Street this year.

PBI,

I've PM'd you and will be in touch.

Rod