Postcards

[AmericanTommy]

King's Royal Rifle Corps volunteers. Found this one rather beat up.

[Beechhill]

1 hour ago, AmericanTommy said:

King's Royal Rifle Corps volunteers. Found this one rather beat up.

They look very young! Especially the left one. Makes the whole motif all the more ghostly. 

[GWF1967]

 Royal Artillery Territorials.  Can anyone help please with:

 

1.Cpl. with Trade badge. G? in wreath, crown over?

 

2. Rank/Title for this chap please. 

 

 

Edited 5 January , 2018 by GWF1967

[GWF1967]

Arthur Bruce Gladwell. Gunner. 105214.   208th. Siege Battery.  Royal Garrison Artillery.

Edited 5 January , 2018 by GWF1967

[GreyC]

Hi GWF 1967,

could you spell out the abreviation for those of us not familiar with them?

Thanks!

GreyC

[GWF1967]

41 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Hi GWF 1967,

could you spell out the abreviation for those of us not familiar with them?

Thanks!

GreyC

Not a problem.

[GreyC]

Thanks a lot. This way I can learn them bit by bit.

GreyC

[Alisonmallen62]

Have surprisingly found the attached confirming who this soldier is and where the photo was taken.  Posted originally in Feb  last year. Assume it was a popular photographers.  

[GWF1967]

 Officers of the 1/3rd West Lancashire Field Ambulance.

[gordon92]

On 1/6/2018 at 17:00, GWF1967 said:

 Officers of the 1/3rd West Lancashire Field Ambulance.

I wonder why some of these officers are wearing the Sam Browne with a double brace while a few have only the single cross strap. This is perplexing since none are carrying the revolver case.

[munce]

10 hours ago, gordon92 said:

I wonder why some of these officers are wearing the Sam Browne with a double brace while a few have only the single cross strap. This is perplexing since none are carrying the revolver case.

Unusual jacket the major on the left (as we look at it) is wearing as well.

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, gordon92 said:

I wonder why some of these officers are wearing the Sam Browne with a double brace while a few have only the single cross strap. This is perplexing since none are carrying the revolver case.

 

The double brace was officially the laid down arrangement for ‘marching order’, even for these officers equipped with spurs.  This was to allow the fitting of the accessories, including pistol and bullet case, binoculars and haversack. Some of the officers are presumably not anticipating carrying these items, perhaps they are allocated to an ambulance wagon.  I imagine that there is some unseen rationale to their dress.

[AmericanTommy]

In some regiments such as the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) the double brace was a standard practice for officers and WOs.

 

Edited 8 January , 2018 by AmericanTommy

[gordon92]

51 minutes ago, AmericanTommy said:

In some regiments such as the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) the double brace was a standard practice for officers and WOs.

I was aware that the Cameronians (SR) did this.  Any idea who else? 

 

 

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The double brace was officially the laid down arrangement for ‘marching order’, even for these officers equipped with spurs.  This was to allow the fitting of the accessories, including pistol and bullet case, binoculars and haversack. Some of the officers are presumably not anticipating carrying these items, perhaps they are allocated to an ambulance wagon.  I imagine that there is some unseen rationale to their dress.

 

10 hours ago, munce said:

Unusual jacket the major on the left (as we look at it) is wearing as well.

Yes, it does appear to be unusual.  Pre-1913 officers' service dress jackets had closed collars with twisted shoulder cords.  However, this fellow has shoulder straps of the same woolen material as the rest of the jacket, so it is probably not a pre-1913 leftover.

[Buffnut453]

This is an amazing collection of images.  Appreciate all who've contributed.  Here are a couple of my relations.  The first is 2Lt George Gamble who died of wounds on 24 Sep 1917 while serving with the 2nd Bn, the Rifle Brigade.  George enlisted in St.Helens, Lancs, early Sep 1914, serving with the 4th Bn, the Rifle Brigade, in France and Salonika.  He was promoted to Sgt in 1916 before being selected for commissioning at the end of the year.  This image is a poor-quality copy from a newspaper article but I believe the original came from a postcard. Wish I could find a copy of the original.

 

The second image shows George's younger sister, Eva, and her husband Jim Gerrard RAMC.  They were married in 1916 and I suspect this image was taken during their honeymoon.  It was taken in Blackpool and Jim's uniform looks rather fresh and new.  Jim survived the war. 

 

Two other Gamble boys served during WW1. 

• James Gamble joined the RFC in 1914 as an Aircraft Mechanic.  He, too, was promoted to Sgt in 1916 before being selected for pilot training in 1917.  He went to France in September 1918 to fly Bristol Fighters with 11 Sqn RAF.  He survived the war. 
• Ernest Gamble joined the Navy in 1913 and trained as a Seaman Gunner.  He served aboard HMS Argyll and was probably on the ship when she ran aground at Bell Rock in Oct 1915.  He spent most of the rest of the war uneventfully aboard HMS Gabriel.

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, gordon92 said:

I was aware that the Cameronians (SR) did this.  Any idea who else? 

 

 

 

Yes, it does appear to be unusual.  Pre-1913 officers' service dress jackets had closed collars with twisted shoulder cords.  However, this fellow has shoulder straps of the same woolen material as the rest of the jacket, so it is probably not a pre-1913 leftover.

 

The Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry favoured two braces as standard and there was also a Hussar regiment, but I cannot recall which it was.

 

I suspect that the unusual jacket is the old pattern with shoulder straps retro fitted.  There appear to be small buttons and perhaps gorget tabs on the collar tips, but I can’t quite make out the detail enough to be sure.

Edited 9 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

14 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry favoured two braces as standard and there was also a Hussar regiment, but I cannot recall which it was.

 

I suspect that the unusual jacket is the old pattern with shoulder straps retro fitted.  There appear to be small buttons and perhaps gorget tabs on the collar tips, but I can’t quite make out the detail enough to be sure.

R.A.M.C. collar badges I think.

[themonsstar]

Postcards from this weekend:

2nd N.M. Heavy Batt RGA Luton.

RE 29 Party 2nd RB. on the back off to Egypt.

Sgt Northumberland Fusiliers.

Ptes Hawkins & Goodland Somerset Light Infantry 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Double strapped Sam Brownes were very common throughout the infantry in 1914. in the Regulars and TF.  It was seen less frequently as the war progressed as Officers gradually adopted OR's equipment (there are a few threads on this). Here is the 1st Bn Black Watch on the eve of the War to illustrate the point. Even the Field Officers who suited and booted for riding are wearing the double straps.... note most (all?) have holsters for revolvers on their right hip which might be a factor.  Incidentally my favourite photo of the war. Only one man on this photo made it out unscathed, only to become a POW in Round 2. 

 

The CO (Grant Duff) wrote the manual on Mobilization. A first class piece of Staff Work. 

 

Edited 10 January , 2018 by Guest
typos

[Muerrisch]

Martin, in addition to the three field officers and adjutant booted, there are of course three captain company commanders thus horsed on the war establishment, plus the QM, RMO, Transport Officer and MG Officer.

 

Together these cut down the number of kilts substantially.

 

I agree about the Mobilization Regs, they deserved more than a flimsy card cover. A very important document for those studying the early days of the war.

[FROGSMILE]

It is true that double braces were standard for field service marching order in every infantry battalion and cavalry regiment as part of mobilisation orders.  There were in addition a few regiments that decreed double braces as a standard minimum when wearing the Sam Browne.  Those are the regiments that I was referring to.

16 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

R.A.M.C. collar badges I think.

 

Thank you, yes the enlargement confirms that ably.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It is true that double braces were standard for field service marching order in every infantry battalion and cavalry regiment as part of mobilisation orders.  There were in addition a few regiments that decreed double braces as a standard minimum when wearing the Sam Browne.  Those are the regiments that I was referring to.

 

 

Mr Frog, that was understood.... Given Mobilization Orders were built on Grant Duff's magnum opus it is perhaps little surprise the Black Jocks are in correct rig. My tacit observations were simply that it appears 'rare' because there are relatively fewer photos of officers in this rig than with standard single strap Sam Browne.  It looks old fashioned to most, but those of us with pre-war interest it is not such an unusual rig, particularly among the TF in the immediate pre-war years. 

 

I am interested that this was standard rig for cavalry. I have never seen a regular cavalryman post 1914 in this rig.  You mentioned a Hussar Regiment where it was allegedly de rigueure. Definitely not 10th Royal Hussars or 11th Hussars . I would be interested in discovering which of the others it was as the Line cavalry seem to have been quite keen on not toeing the line..  Particularly as the sword was carried on the saddle furniture it seems an odd instruction and one of limited practical value for mounted Officers given the sodding encumbrance of taking these things off.... I don't doubt for a second it happened, just curious to know which Hussar regiment in the vast panoply of regimental uniform oddities.  

 

It would be really an interesting and (I think) a rare photo....Martin. 

Edited 10 January , 2018 by Guest

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, QGE said:

 

Mr Frog, that was understood.... Given Mobilization Orders were built on Grant Duff's magnum opus it is perhaps little surprise the Black Jocks are in correct rig. My tacit observations were simply that it appears 'rare' because there are relatively fewer photos of officers in this rig than with standard single strap Sam Browne.  It looks old fashioned to most, but those of us with pre-war interest it is not such an unusual rig, particularly among the TF in the immediate pre-war years. 

 

I am interested that this was standard rig for cavalry. I have never seen a regular cavalryman post 1914 in this rig.  You mentioned a Hussar Regiment where it was allegedly de rigueure. Definitely not 10th Royal Hussars or 11th Hussars . I would be interested in discovering which of the others it was as the Line cavalry seem to have been quite keen on not toeing the line..  Particularly as the sword was carried on the saddle furniture it seems an odd instruction and one of limited practical value for mounted Officers given the sodding encumbrance of taking these things off.... I don't doubt for a second it happened, just curious to know which Hussar regiment in the vast panoply of regimental uniform oddities.  

 

It would be really an interesting and (I think) a rare photo....Martin. 

 

Hello Martin,

I did understand that you realised my intent, the comment was really clarification for any other readers who might otherwise have been confused.  I recall the mention of double braces for a light cavalry regiment between the wars, my memory says Hussars but I cannot remember which.  I think it was that time when regiments were in general seeking idiosyncrasies, perhaps to make up for the absence of full dress.

In general the double braces order for cavalry officers in marching order (the men in bandoliers - the officers with pistols and swords) was I think recognition that much of the action would be dismounted, with the men effectively used as ersatz mounted infantry, but trained of course as Arme Blanche instantly ready to charge and deliver the shock action that was their raison d’etre.

Edited 10 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

 

Hello Martin,

I did understand that you realised my intent, the comment was really clarification for any other readers who might otherwise have been confused.  I recall the mention of double braces for a light cavalry regiment between the wars, my memory says Hussars but I cannot remember which.  I think it was that time when regiments were in general seeking idiosyncrasies, perhaps to make up for the absence of full dress.

In general the double braces order for cavalry officers in marching order (the men in bandoliers) was I think recognition that much of the action would be dismounted with the men effectively used as ersatz mounted infantry but trained of course as Arme Blanche instantly ready to charge and deliver the shock action that was their raison d’etre.

 

Mr Frog... thank you. Part II suggests very pre 1914 instructions.....As I know you know the debate of the Arme Blanche raged for some years during the inter-war period...yet I still have never seen a 'two up' Sam Browne in the Cavalry. An area of great interest. 

 

Is it possible that this is a conflation with the 14th/20th Hussars in the 1970s. Allegedly King Olav V (?) of Norway (Col in Chief) pitched up to a parade with his single strap Sam Browne over the left shoulder (It would probably have been a 200th Centenary parade or the Jubilee  or presentation of a Guidon). The Regiment gracefully responded by switching theirs discretely behind the scenes allegedly (I stress allegedly). Certainly in the folklore of the line cavalry in the 1970s-1980s. Martin

[FROGSMILE]

17 hours ago, QGE said:

 

Mr Frog... thank you. Part II suggests very pre 1914 instructions.....As I know you know the debate of the Arme Blanche raged for some years during the inter-war period...yet I still have never seen a 'two up' Sam Browne in the Cavalry. An area of great interest. 

 

Is it possible that this is a conflation with the 14th/20th Hussars in the 1970s. Allegedly King Olav V (?) of Norway (Col in Chief) pitched up to a parade with his single strap Sam Browne over the left shoulder (It would probably have been a 200th Centenary parade or the Jubilee  or presentation of a Guidon). The Regiment gracefully responded by switching theirs discretely behind the scenes allegedly (I stress allegedly). Certainly in the folklore of the line cavalry in the 1970s-1980s. Martin

 

Yes I think that it was indeed pre-1914 instructions, but certainly carried out in the early actions (1914 thro 15) when in several occasions dismounted cavalry brigades held the line or covered flanks as the infantry divisions withdrew. From 1916 on things changed as we both know.

I’m aware of the 14/20 anecdote and no, it’s not a conflation.

If I recall correctly the film War Horse depicts the officers marching order for 1914-15 on the actor Benedict Cumberpatch (playing the commanding officer) very accurately.  Unfortunately contemporary photos of British cavalry officers in mounted marching order are exceedingly rare.  I enclose one officer correctly dressed (with GS blanket or greatcoat en banderole) and one who has opted for just one brace.

Edited 11 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE