Postcards

[GWF1967]

Manchester Reg.

[Muerrisch]

On 8/12/2017 at 15:04, themonsstar said:

 

 

Good group. Sergeants' Mess with two bicycle orderlies as CO's gophers? We have the RQMS and Musketry Sergeant and the Colonel.

[Andrew Upton]

6 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 

... and the Colonel.

 

Blowing the image up, he appears only to be a Major - his cuff rank only shows one single central lump which would be the crown, and the three horizontal bands with the two central gaps filled with extra braid. If he was a Lieutenant Colonel he would have the pip and crown making things off centre, plus an extra row of braid above and below the horizontal bands.

 

Major:

 

 

Lieutenant Colonel:

 

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 

Good group. Sergeants' Mess with two bicycle orderlies as CO's gophers? We have the RQMS and Musketry Sergeant and the Colonel.

 

He’s the Quartermaster I believe Muerrisch.  QM was rank ranged Captain/Major and he’s an ‘old boy’.  What I think we see here is the QM’s staff.  Check out his medal ribbons.

 

P.S.  The musketry sergeant would often stay in the vicinity of the RQMS, et al, for ready access to ammunition and the unit wagons GS.

Edited 10 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Yes I agree!

I started with QM staff and let the musketry man misguide me

[GWF1967]

Warwickshire T.F.   E/Lancs,  S/Lancs NCO,  Labour Corps,  Cameronians,  Herefordshire NCO,  R.W.F? NCO,  4th (Cumberland & Westmorland) Border TF,  Manchester. 

 NF?/RIF?  Corrections welcomed.

[Tomo.T]

On 06/10/2017 at 11:58, themonsstar said:

Workshop Staff 59 D.S.C. 1917

 

Top photo is of 892 Coy Workshop staff (59 Div, Supply Column) ASC. Soon after their arrival in France ( They commenced recording operations in Dec. 17) Sadly no location is given in the War Diaries until the Unit moved to Frevent in mid 1918. No vehicle details are recorded, but the workshop was bombed by aircraft and set on fire in early 1918. Are the pictures connected?

[BeverleyDi]

Thank you so much Muerrish and Frogsmile for the information on the Royal Engineers’ armband and signallers badge.  I keep trying to piece together my grandfather’s war time story and it's great to know he was actually a signaller.

 

Pioneer Lewis H Norris went to France as an infantryman in the 1/5^th York and Lancaster Regiment but at some time in 1915 he transferred to the Royal Engineers and was posted to the 49^th Divisional Signals.

 

On the 16^th June 1916 it was reported in the Sheffield Evening Telegraph that Pioneer 1857 Norris, 49^th Division Signals, had been mentioned in dispatches. He was later awarded the Military Medal (Gazette 10^th Nov 1916).

 

At some point he was transferred to a Field Survey Company but there’s some confusion whether this was 3rd or 5th. At the time of his death on 30 March 1918  CWGC records him with the 3^rd FSC whereas the statement of “Soldiers Effects” puts him with the 5^th FSC.  I understand it’s very unusual for the CWCG's allocation to be wrong but his burial, Adelaide Cemetery, Villers Bretonneux, seems to make it more likely that he was a member of the 5^th.

[charlie962]

Soldiers Died also says 5th FSC.  I note he is wearing breeches ? And thats not the 49th Div badge at the top of his sleeve ? Or is it a rose on a black  or red background ?

Edited 11 October , 2017 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

Breeches were issued to linesmen in the Signals Service of the Royal Engineers, who were mounted duty troops using horsed wagons and outriders.  I do not know if Field Survey Companies we’re equipped in a similar way.

 

It always seems especially sad to me when I read of men who survived so many earlier actions in WW1 only to be killed in the momentous German offensive of March 1918.

Edited 11 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[johnboy]

Is that a trade or proficiency badge on his right sleeve?

[Stoppage Drill]

TF Proficiency Badge.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Stoppage Drill said:

TF Proficiency Badge.

 

It’s a skills badge for judging distance. He also has a good conduct badge/stripe left forearm.  See Muerrisch’s earlier post.

[johnboy]

thanks.

[Stoppage Drill]

I stick with what I said - though I should have said "Efficiency" rather than "Proficiency".

 

We are told that he belonged to a TF battalion, so that ties in too.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Stoppage Drill said:

I stick with what I said - though I should have said "Efficiency" rather than "Proficiency".

 

We are told that he belonged to a TF battalion, so that ties in too.

 

They looked similar except in colouring, but you must remember that the efficiency badge for 5/4 years of unit returns as efficient was a VF/TF Badge, relevant for his old infantry battalion, but wholly irrelevant on an RE uniform where it would have meant nothing.  Conversely the judging distance badge, related to skill at arms, was prized by infantry for sight setting, but also applicable and permissible on uniform for an RE Sapper, regardless from whence it came.  Ergo I think that you will find that our colleague, Muerrisch, is correct.

Edited 12 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Stoppage Drill]

Still not wholly convinced. The fact that it was irrelevant on his uniform as a Sapper is a bit meaningless. Soldiers love badges, ribbons and uniform distinctions - if he had been entitled to the TF Efficiency badge in his infantry incarnation, he may have been allowed to keep wearing it.

And - maybe more telling - wasn't the distance finder badge worn on the left sleeve ?

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Still not wholly convinced. The fact that it was irrelevant on his uniform as a Sapper is a bit meaningless. Soldiers love badges, ribbons and uniform distinctions - if he had been entitled to the TF Efficiency badge in his infantry incarnation, he may have been allowed to keep wearing it.

And - maybe more telling - wasn't the distance finder badge worn on the left sleeve ?

 

No, they were both worn on right arm in a similar position.  Both had 5-points, but judging distance issued only to soldiers on regular terms of service.  In 1914 authorised on a scale of 16 per Regt of cavalry, 48 per infantry battalion and 6 per RE company, all as an integral part of musketry training.  Skill at arms badges were transferable between arms (inf/RA/RE etc).  Efficiency stars were transferable between units, but I doubt transferable between arms because ‘efficiency’ skills and measurements would in part have been special to arm.  Ergo an efficient sapper was not the same as an efficient infantryman.  That is what I meant by “irrelevant”.  It should also be borne in mind that the efficiency star was broadly the TF equivalent to a good conduct badge for a regular soldier, until the latter were authorised for TF after 1916.  Our subject has a good conduct badge on his left forearm.

Edited 13 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[wainfleet]

On 11/10/2017 at 22:23, charlie962 said:

Soldiers Died also says 5th FSC.  I note he is wearing breeches ? And thats not the 49th Div badge at the top of his sleeve ? Or is it a rose on a black  or red background ?

 

Probably the Field Survey Company badge which is an oval with letters FSC, red on black IIRC.

[Daveenb]

Here's my Grandfather; 427391 Pte. Purl Moore. The first one taken at training camp in 1915. The second in 1919 on his way home. Deas Gu Cath

[Guest]

I am totally new to the Great War Forum, having been advised to contact the site by Tony Allen, of WW1 postcards website.  My cousin in America has the original postcard photo of a Canadian Military Band Corporal who was in the South of England in 1917, and his photo was taken at the studio of E. Herridge, High Street, Staines, possibly late 1916/early 1917.  Unfortunately, we do not know what his name was, so we can't find out what battalion he was in, although he does have Ontario on his shoulder, but we believe him to be a friend of our grandmother, who we think must have met him in 1917, when he was in the South of England.  Does anyone know what happened to the photos from the studio of E. Herridge?  If we could find a photo of this Canadian man, with his name attached, it would solve our whole problem!  The photo I have inserted has been enhanced because the original, which is 100 years old, was getting a bit faded, but the photo shows his two stripes (Corporal) and a Harp badge, which signifies that he was a Musician.  The badge on his collar has been suggested to be a General List badge.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Jean Richardson

 

[robins2]

 

COLLAR BADGE New Ontario Regt  there are other Ontario Regts with similar collar badges, I don't think the one in photo is general list

 

regards

 

Bob R.

Guelph Ont Regt

Edited 15 October , 2017 by robins2
add

[gordon92]

20 hours ago, Daveenb said:

Here's my Grandfather; 427391 Pte. Purl Moore. The first one taken at training camp in 1915. The second in 1919 on his way home. Deas Gu Cath

Looks like he was originally taken on by the 46th Battalion CEF (probably whose uniform he is wearing in the first photo) at Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan and then the 16th Battalion Canadian Scottish (your second photo).  Just in case you do not have it, here is his service file:  Purl Moore.

[Muerrisch]

This will not help but the correct designation in 1914 1918 was "bandsman" not musician.

[Muerrisch]

A bit of a side show, but a rare rare sighting of a rare rare badge.