Imminent Release of Successful Identifications

[River97]

Hi Sandra,

I just wanted to say thanks for the kind words and thoughts - although I expected a low number of Brits finding out that there are only three has been a blow for those of us working on the British side of things but I agree that our work has certainly not been in vain. Amazing stories of many of the British men have come to light and there are a whole heap of modern-day families who now know about their relative and are keeping their memory alive. I can't think of a more fitting memorial for the men than their own families remembering them so.

I also wanted to say that, the British result aside, I am absolutely over the moon for you, Tim, all of the families of those identified and everyone else on the Australian side who have done so much to get these boys identified. It is a fantastic result that is the much deserved product of an enormous amount of hard work. To see so many get a named grave will be absolutely wonderful - well done.

Regards

Michelle x

Don't give up just yet. There are are still the 44 'unknowns'. Hopefully they may be able to make a determination as to where they came from. If not at least you tried, at least you were willing to give it a shot. We the amateurs on the sideline watched, saw and read the interaction with the families. You helped bring a small piece of history back into the public eye which ensures that, as my signature say's, when our soldiers fall on the field of battle, they earn the right to live forever.

Cheers Andy.

[Andrew P]

Dan

The other possible Sandra mentioned was 1186 Sgt John Walker. When I did the list of Western Australian soldiers at Fromelles for Lambis several years ago I had only marked Walker down as a 'maybe' as there was nothing concrete in his records to say he was buried by the Germans like there was for the other soldiers. So I had only marked him as a possible.

However looking back over his records recently it sounded like he was badly knocked about and a 32nd soldier who got back to the lines saw him lying next to Robert Courtney Green in the German lines. Robert Green had the German records in his file.

Plus cementing this fact yesterday was that Robert Green was one of those soldiers identified yesterday.

Cheers

Andrew

[Fedelmar]

Well said Andy ... you words gave me goosebumps. Whilst I am sad that more UK boys weren't identified I feel very honoured to have come to know Victoria, Michelle and Mel and have learnt much from them through this experience. I guess we all have been brought closer together through our common goal.

I did mention to Tim the other day ... the whole lot of those unaccounted for need to be considered now. Particularly since boys like Simon etc have been Id'd without the supporting documents/information in their files.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[ShirlD]

That sounds like another 2 years research for you Sandra (and Tim) , it is heart warming to hear of the stories emerging.

Thank you all for the tireless work and painstaking, meticulous combing of all the records and documents available.

I too want to encourage the UK 'gang', it is a fine work you are doing and this long journey is nowhere near complete

Cheers

Shirley

[Seadog]

A good piece on my local BBC TV news yesterday, Weds 17/03 Points West including interviews with Victoria Burbridge and Peter Barton who stated “Where are the Brits”? And intimated that in his opinion there were more mass-burial pits such as those recently excavated. Peter also mentioned the 1915 battle and a figure of 1300 “missing” it was not clear to me what this figure relates to. The strange thing is that this report was the same as the video available on the BBC web site the only difference being that Peter Barton’s comments are cut from the that one.

Regards

Norman

[Tjap]

That sounds like another 2 years research for you Sandra (and Tim) , it is heart warming to hear of the stories emerging.

Thank you all for the tireless work and painstaking, meticulous combing of all the records and documents available.

I too want to encourage the UK 'gang', it is a fine work you are doing and this long journey is nowhere near complete

Cheers

Shirley

Regarding the way forward it would seem that 57 of the 191 on the original list have been identified and that DNA was an important part of the process. This leaves 134 from the original list. If a reliably sourced Mt DNA relative has submitted a specimen and no match resulted then either the soldier is one of the few from whom no useful DNA (for identification purposes) could be extracted or they are not amongst those in the Fromelles burial pits. Since almost a third of those identified were not from the original lists it would be extremely useful to know from MOD how many of those on the original list have been ruled out with high probability.

One way might be to extend the tree established for the men of the 5th AIF [http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/fhs/home.aspx?tid=11416465 (you need a 'free' ancestry account to view this)], to include those with earlier British ancestry. I know from my earlier successful efforts to trace and contact an Mt DNA relative of Lieutenant Ridout of HMAS Sydney that it was necessary to go back to an ancestral female line from the 1830's to find a clear and validated Mt DNA connection - sadly ruling Ridout out of the equation in terms of the unknown HMAS sailor.

Building on the trust, respect and goodwill of the families that you have already established and working in this way might provide the means to bring closure for those whose established trees do not include individuals suitable for Y or Mt DNA testing.

Just a suggestion.

Best wishes,

Howard

[Fedelmar]

only six sets of remains failed to produce viable DNA.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Fromelles]

I did mention to Tim the other day ... the whole lot of those unaccounted for need to be considered now. Particularly since boys like Simon etc have been Id'd without the supporting documents/information in their files.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

G'day Sandra,

After filtering all the soldiers (32nd Battn only) that were officially listed as 'missing' as well as the men reported KIA but have no known grave, but not including the names already on the working list or Pte Simon, there are as many as 85 more names from the 32nd Battn alone that may need including on a list of ‘possiblies’.

From there a much more detailed vetting of the records would be needed. Plenty of these soldiers fit the bill for further investigation.

Multiply that by number of Units involved and you have an unenviable (but very rewarding) job on your hands.

Dan

[phil@basildon]

A good piece on my local BBC TV news yesterday, Weds 17/03 Points West including interviews with Victoria Burbridge and Peter Barton who stated "Where are the Brits"? And intimated that in his opinion there were more mass-burial pits such as those recently excavated. Peter also mentioned the 1915 battle and a figure of 1300 "missing" it was not clear to me what this figure relates to. The strange thing is that this report was the same as the video available on the BBC web site the only difference being that Peter Barton's comments are cut from the that one.

Regards

Norman

It seems that the Germans buried their own dead in mass graves, many of which are marked with memorials listing the names of those intered there. Some indeed contain a few allied servicemen. This gives rise to the possibility of another as yet undiscovered 'Fromelles'. I hope that the cutting of Peter Barton's comments were for technical/time reasons and no other. Perhaps someone is able to contact him for more information?

[Fedelmar]

Not sure where we go from here Dan.

Tim has had important matters to focus on these passed two days so we have not really had a chance to discuss it.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Seadog]

It seems that the Germans buried their own dead in mass graves, many of which are marked with memorials listing the names of those intered there. Some indeed contain a few allied servicemen. This gives rise to the possibility of another as yet undiscovered 'Fromelles'. I hope that the cutting of Peter Barton's comments were for technical/time reasons and no other. Perhaps someone is able to contact him for more information?

Phil, the programme is normally available for a period on the BBC Points West web site for viewing until of course being replaced by the next daily dose of "Parish Pump" news. In this case the last edition available is Monday and I have mailed the BBC in the hope that Weds edition will be uploaded (as it should be) so that members will be able to view the piece. I cannot understand why Peters interview was cut from the final version, the original uncut version must have sneaked through on my local station.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

I certainly agree that work on likely British casualties and their relatives has not been wasted. I would think that they rest somewhere waiting patiently for us to discover them.

Perhaps as might be expected the Germans were typically well organised and kept the Aussies together. Clues should be in the documentation and the Red Cross archive must be a good candidate to answer the question "Where are the Brits?".

I suspect that someone somewhere will have a clue as to the location of this particular rabbit and hat.

[ianw]

only six sets of remains failed to produce viable DNA.

Sandra usefully reminds us of this amazing statistic.

I recall that a good while back, a scientist friend of mine advised me that he was confident that there would be a good level of positive IDs if the family work was done well because the DNA recovery % would likely be high. I posted his opinion at the time when the pros and cons of the attempt at DNA ID was being actively discussed. I can't now find this thread.

However, the success does suggest that more ID work should be done on newly found remains in circumstances where the family research work is viable.

[Seadog]

Ian, I agree entirely with your comment that "However, the success does suggest that more ID work should be done on newly found remains in circumstances where the family research work is viable" and I hope members will forgive me for pressing this point but will this be the case with the 15 sets of British soldiers remains found at Beaucamps-Ligny or as I suspect will they be interred as "Known Unto God" in a low-key ceremony and we the general public will be informed after the event with no doubt another fatuous excuse from the CWGC that " We had the info late and could not get it on the web site" or similar as used in the past.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

I note from the "Fromelles16 July 19th " thread that I have just bumped, that as early as May 2008, a Roger Lee commented in an official press release that there were "probably no British remains at all". So the ID results of this week, would have been no surprise to him. Interesting if it is known on what information he based this statement now proved correct.

By the way, the above mentioned thread is a main Fromelles thread and full of interesting comments detailing the ebbs and flows of Forum opinion on Fromelles.

[ianw]

I agree with Norman that the spectacular ID results at Fromelles should lead to the same efforts being made for other remains found with those found at Beaucamps Ligny being obvious candidates - just burying them as unknowns whilst celebrating the ID results at Fromelles would be hypocritical in the extreme.

Achieving any ID results for those found at Beaucamp Ligny would to a degree assuage the disappointment of the lack of British IDs at Fromelles.

[SteveMarsdin]

Good afternoon Ian and Norman,

I agree, now is a good time for re-prompting CWGC/MOD over Beaumony Ligny.

I am certain any lack of activity will have "costs" and "budget" lingering as reasons in the background, so just so I am better informed do we have any idea of the likely costs of the exercise, both in terms of DNA work and any paid research ?

[David_Underdown]

How much of the success at Fromelles is due to the conditions in which the bodies were initially interred? Wet clay soil is pretty good for preserving organic matter as I understand it. Someone buried in sandy acidic soil, there coul dwell eb little bone etc left, and hence little to extract viable DNA from.

[Tjap]

Sandra usefully reminds us of this amazing statistic.

I recall that a good while back, a scientist friend of mine advised me that he was confident that there would be a good level of positive IDs if the family work was done well because the DNA recovery % would likely be high. I posted his opinion at the time when the pros and cons of the attempt at DNA ID was being actively discussed. I can't now find this thread.

However, the success does suggest that more ID work should be done on newly found remains in circumstances where the family research work is viable.

I've cast around to see if I can find the source of this information. It does not seem to be mentioned in the communiques issued by either of the respective MOD's.

It would be helpful to know whether these six sets of remains with no recoverable DNA were from Australian, British or "Unknown" soldiers. If the latter and this would seem likely if these represent the "clearing up" of soldiers who had lain on the battleground for some considerable time prior to burial, or are only represented by parts of bodies then it may be possible to make definitive statements about who is not amongst the bodies retrieved. This I am sure would be of value to those waiting for an answer.

In view of the Public meetings that were held last year with families and other interested parties, is there any chance that further such meetings might be held, attended by the team that conducted the investigation so that relevant questions may be answered regarding the science of the investigation process?

It seems to me that most of the identifications for soldiers not on the original lists must have been made by means other than DNA and it would be interesting to see how robust the assumptions that must have been made in these instances was.

My understanding on why here is no marked resting place for so many British soldiers is that when their bodies were retrieved from the battlefield their id tags were removed prior to a temporary burial. When it came to moving these bodies to the CWGC war cemeteries the bodies were no longer individually identifiable as the tags had been removed and recorded. The problem isn't that they've disappeared it is that their final resting place amongst the many in the CWGC cemeteries is unknowable.

I am interested to know if this was in fact the case.

There is so much more to know.

Best,

Howard

[J Banning]

phil w said:

It seems that the Germans buried their own dead in mass graves, many of which are marked with memorials listing the names of those intered there. Some indeed contain a few allied servicemen. This gives rise to the possibility of another as yet undiscovered 'Fromelles'. I hope that the cutting of Peter Barton's comments were for technical/time reasons and no other. Perhaps someone is able to contact him for more information?

 

Phil – there are many, many more mass graves on the western front. See the link above and you will see that there were about 30-35 mass graves around Fromelles alone (this figure excludes Pheasant Wood). The term ‘mass grave’ denotes a burial of two or more men – it could be two men, it could be scores…

It would take years of research to determine where these are and whether they were ever discovered in post-war body retrieval or missed (as in the grave at Pheasant Wood).

I should imagine that Peter's comments were edited solely for time constraints. The BBC edit various versions for broadcast on TV and their website.

[Seadog]

Jeremy, the edited version of the BBC Fromelles video is I believe under 1.5 minutes in duration so I do not see that the version shown on BBC Points West required any editing whatsoever. I also do no see anything suspicious here but there must have been a reason why Peter Barton’s comments were removed from the final version. I personally did not construe anything controversial in his comments whatsoever. Maybe this unedited version was also broadcast on other regional BBC news programmes so members may be able to comment.

Regards

Norman

Edited to add:

BBC Video (Edited version)

[ShirlD]

Thank you for that link Norman, I had not seen those clips, much appreciated

Cheers

Shirley

[Seadog]

It is a pleasure Shirley

Regards

Norman

[MartinThwaite]

I have just been looking on the CWGC site at the names and haunting photographs of the Aussie boys identified at Fromelles. Closure at last for all those families, there can be nothing worse than Missing. Three of our boys identified as British soldiers as well. Bless 'em all. Thanks to all involved, an oustanding achievement.

Lest we forget

[ianw]

The interesting and prescient 2008 pre-excavation declaration that there will be no British remains found is in Post 30 of the July 19th Fromelles thread.

An interesting discussion on the pros and cons of DNA ID starts around post 630 on the July 19th Fromelles thread - including my reporting of the opinion of a pal a forensic scientist who correctly thought that the chances of a decent number of positive IDs were good.