Imminent Release of Successful Identifications

[Fromelles]

Dan ... Tim and I discovered another four that are not on the working list and have been submitted. Andrew P another possible but has yet to be submitted.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Sandra,

None from the 32nd I hope .... I don't want to have to eat my words

Dan

[Fedelmar]

Sorry Dan ... one of the new ones on the list (Victor Simon) is from the 32nd Andrew P's one I can't remember and our extra 4 are not from 32nd

[Fromelles]

Sorry Dan ... one of the new ones on the list (Victor Simon) is from the 32nd Andrew P's one I can't remember and our extra 4 are not from 32nd

I'm not convinced, I don't see how 1516 Pte Victor George Simon gets on the list.

He was pronounced KIA via the Court of Enquiry held on the 12 Aug 17 and no trace was found of him in Germany by Capt Mills immediately after the war. There's nothing on his pers file to indicate he was ever picked up by the Germans.

There is a unsubstantiated statement on the Red Cross files which states he's 'officially' a PoW (no such statement on Pers File), but there is nothing to place Private Simon in the pits at Pheasant Wood.

I'd very much like to know how the connection was made.

Cheers,

Dan

[Auimfo]

Dan,

I've spoken to Simon's descendants. They knew that their great uncle went missing at Fromelles but noticed his surname did not appear on the working list. After tossing around the idea of registering and offering DNA they eventually decided it was worth the effort. Good thing too!!

I've always thought it unreasonable to expect the Germans to have been able to identify 'all' the remains they buried in the pits. No doubt there were going to be some that even they couldn't put a name to. That's why there was never any written record from the Germans - they had no idea who they were.

I haven't counted exactly but there's about 4-5 of the identified that fit this criteria and have never been on the working list.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Auimfo]

Oh and by the way, here's the break down of nationality (at last):

203 Australian (75 identified)

3 British (none identified)

44 Unknown

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Seadog]

Thanks Tim, I can feel the next question coming "Where are the British"?.

Regards

Norman

[NigelS]

Here's the official UK MOD press release Click

NigelS

[ianw]

I have just downloaded the pdf list of those identified from the defence.au website. It is amazing to see all the names in print and can now quite appreciate the excitement of those that have worked with the families of these men in the past. What a rewarding site that list must be to them!

It seems likely that the number of British in the pits was very small - indeed are the 3 x "British" IDs absolutely positive or could some sort of contamination by souveniring or whatever have led to Australian remains being give a British ID. Professionals did the nationality IDs so I presume not

I don't understand the point Dan is attempting to make about Pte Simon - he has been positively DNA identified and was therefore in the pit or am I missing something obvious? I agree that the ID of Pte Scott does raise interesting questions about his "burial" at Rue Petillon.

The absence of British casualties does beg the question of where they are. I suspect some folk have some ideas about this but they seem to be keeping their counsel at the moment!

[roel22]

I have just downloaded the pdf list of those identified from the defence.au website.

Do you have the exact url?

thanks

Roel

[dfaulder]

Roel

Post 40 Howard offers:

http://www.army.gov.au/fromelles/docs/list...ed_soldiers.pdf

Took awhile to open!

HTH

David

[Seadog]

Thanks Nigel for the MOD link. I have clicked here and then clicked on the CWGC/Fromelles site as detailed for the list of names already kindly made available by our Australian friends, at this stage I gave up with that mess of a CWGC site. If anyone knows where the list is on the CWGC site perhaps they can post a direct link.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

Sorry Roel I am a bit busy at the moment but it is easily found in the "Fromelles" section of the Aussie Defence website.

[roel22]

David already helped me out, thanks!

Roel

[Seadog]

In respect of the British there were approx 350 names on the original list published on the CWGC web site. Even allowing for the errors on this list that still means that there are a considerable number “missing” can they all be in either Unknown” graves or still on the battlefield somewhere or are there yet more discoveries to be made?

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

Norman - I have reason to suspect the latter but those with any information will have to volunteer it themselves. Some of the interesting conversations I have had on this subject were "alcohol affected".

Perhaps people are also wary about exposing themselves to the assorted "rubbishing" that Lambis had to initially put up with. If I knew of a likely pit, I might not expect the powers that be to welcome receiving the knowledge and to commit to excavating it.

That said, perhaps the Australian Army is learning the PR value of these sort of activities. I noted with interest that the remains of 2 Australian SAS soldiers have been found in Malaysia and will be brought home after over 40 years buried there. Well done again, Australia.

[NigelS]

Thanks Nigel for the MOD link. I have clicked here and then clicked on the CWGC/Fromelles site as detailed for the list of names already kindly made available by our Australian friends, at this stage I gave up with that mess of a CWGC site. If anyone knows where the list is on the CWGC site perhaps they can post a direct link.

I find it very odd that the last press release given on the CWGC website (given by the MOD as the organization to get further details from) is dated the 8th March. You would have thought that knowing the interest there is in Fromelles, they would have made a bit more of an effort and synchronised a release with that of the MOD.

The last update to the 'casualty lists' Click is dated January so obviously won't include the identifications which have already been released on the Australian Army website. As Norman (Seadog) said a bit of a mess.

NigelS

[Tjap]

I've looked at the lists and there are 18 soldiers amongst those identified who were not on the original lists. The greatest number of these were with the 53rd Battalion.

I attach a tab delimited text file of the "new" names

Cheers,

Howard

Oz_ided__new_names_4_list.txt

[Seadog]

Great news the CWGC have now caught up with the Australians:

Identified list:

Click here:

Norman

[MelPack]

Although I am still reeling from the British result, it is marvellous to see that list of names in print.

It is aslo particularly moving to see that both of the Wilson brothers have been successfully identified.

Mel

[topsey1234]

Great news the CWGC have now caught up with the Australians:

Identified list:

Click here:

Norman

The SPVA Historic Casework team have sent a letter today to British relatives. Whilst I was always realistic about the chances of a positive identification for my relative I still wonder how hundreds of bodies from the 61st Division seem to have no record of their final resting place.

Richard

[roel22]

Is there any idea how many of the Fromelles-casualties are still missing? I mean the total number of MIA minus the unknowns in the various cemeteries.

Roel

[Tjap]

Although I am still reeling from the British result, it is marvellous to see that list of names in print.

It is aslo particularly moving to see that both of the Wilson brothers have been successfully identified.

Mel

Mel,

this is a gut wrenchingly awful result in terms of the time, money and effort that you have put in. Many lessons will have been learned and perhaps, for some of the other mass graves that seem to be in the offing, a different approach, and more importantly a more sensitive and open approach to the communication strategy may emerge.

What I can say from working alongside you in the latter stages of this project is that your method of tracing relatives and contacts has proved extremely effective. What irks me is that given the apparent request for further relatives of a small group of soldiers in the January "priority list" of the MOD I have this week made contact with an Mt DNA relative of one William John Law of the Warwickshire Regiment, who is on their additional contacts required list. Now I am in a quandry as to what to say to the lady in question.

If it is true that their are only three soldiers who are British born and lived in Britain throughout their lives, then at what point did it become clear that this was/might be the case?

I have to say that I feel a bit let down in terms of the way in which the scientists and the military appear to have worked together and communicated with each on this project, if the final answer is that no British soldiers from the battle have been identified amongst the fallen retrieved.

Howard

[Fedelmar]

First ... Kendall was not 5th Bge he was 31st Bn and McDowell was not 22nd Bn he was 60th.

Mel ... whilst the work you, Victoria (heaps more than some of us know about), Michelle and others have done for the UK lads may seem fruitless right now rest assured the boys will be found. The can't all have just disappeared but are out there somewhere. As you will have come to know, they work in mysterious ways to ensure their history is told and have no concept of time.

Whilst there are only 3 UK lads in these pits and reiterating what I said yesterday, THEY HAVE TO BE SOMEWHERE. I personally think there must be more burial pits in the area that contain the bodies of some of them.

A precedence has been set now by both DoD, MOD and CWGC.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Michelle79]

Hi Sandra,

I just wanted to say thanks for the kind words and thoughts - although I expected a low number of Brits finding out that there are only three has been a blow for those of us working on the British side of things but I agree that our work has certainly not been in vain. Amazing stories of many of the British men have come to light and there are a whole heap of modern-day families who now know about their relative and are keeping their memory alive. I can't think of a more fitting memorial for the men than their own families remembering them so.

I also wanted to say that, the British result aside, I am absolutely over the moon for you, Tim, all of the families of those identified and everyone else on the Australian side who have done so much to get these boys identified. It is a fantastic result that is the much deserved product of an enormous amount of hard work. To see so many get a named grave will be absolutely wonderful - well done.

Regards

Michelle x

[Fromelles]

Dan,

I've spoken to Simon's descendants. They knew that their great uncle went missing at Fromelles but noticed his surname did not appear on the working list. After tossing around the idea of registering and offering DNA they eventually decided it was worth the effort. Good thing too!!

I've always thought it unreasonable to expect the Germans to have been able to identify 'all' the remains they buried in the pits. No doubt there were going to be some that even they couldn't put a name to. That's why there was never any written record from the Germans - they had no idea who they were.

I haven't counted exactly but there's about 4-5 of the identified that fit this criteria and have never been on the working list.

Cheers,

Tim L.

Tim & Sandra,

I've only just now noticed (rather embarrassingly) that Pte Simon has in fact been identified which proves your point about the Germans not being able to ID all in the pits. I'm assuming parts of bodies were buried in the pits also.

I'll see what names of the missing I have and try and ID any that may also qualify, probably most of the men listed in the Court of Enquiry would be a good start.

It's great news for the descendants of Pte Simon, and I suppose should be highlighted to others that may be convinced that just because the records don't support the possibility that a relation may be buried at Pheasant Wood, facts are there is every chance that just about anyone who went missing on 19/20 July could be in the pits, and hence possibly identified.

Regards,

Dan