Imminent Release of Successful Identifications

[Auimfo]

Just rememebr folks, it's not over yet. 75 have been identified after the 'first' round of testing. There is a supplementary panel planned for April/May to consider the results of descendants who registered later in the process and thus had DNA taken too late for the initial testing phase.

Beyond that, there will be an annual panel to consider any new information for the next few years.

Rest assured the numbers will climb - it's just a matter of by how many.

Cheers,

Tim L.

Shirley - yes Sandra dobbed me in cos' she was too chicken to talk on air. Hope it came across ok.

[Auimfo]

I don't believe that it's my position to tell everyone the names of the identified that I am aware of thus far until released by family or the authorities. However I can't see the harm in telling you the breakdown of the battalions they were from.

Currently (and I keep getting more info with virtually every passing minute)

29th Bn - 1

30th Bn - 1

31st Bn - 2

32nd Bn - 7

53rd Bn - 3

54th Bn - 1

55th Bn - 3

That should add up to the 18 currently known to me.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[ianw]

Thanks for the info Tim.

I am very excited by 75 positive ID's - that there may well be more is very cheering.

[ShirlD]

Shirley - yes Sandra dobbed me in cos' she was too chicken to talk on air. Hope it came across ok.

It was a very good interview on ABC Drive, the sense of anticipation and relief that everyone's hard work and dedication to the project (with special mention of Lambis) had all come together, came across very strongly.

The earlier interview is the Directors Pick for the podcast of the day with Gillian O Shaunessy, and I found it by googling 720 ABC Perth and following the signs.

Cheers mate

Shirley

[green_acorn]

I have just been advised by Tim Whitford (great nephew of Pte Harry Willis) that during the conversation with the Army he asked if he could discuss the result with the media and he was advised that they had no problem with it.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Sandra,

On that basis I apologise and I unqualifiedly withdraw my criticism of the newspaper and obliquely Tim W in post #8. Though I would have hoped the paper would hold the article until Thursday, they were probably acting on the understanding the information was to be published yesterday, Tuesday as mentioned in The Times and therefore can't really be criticised too much either.

To Time Whitford and his family, congratulations on a successful search, obviously great news closing of on where their uncle is and that he will now be honoured properly with a marked grave.

Cheers,

Hendo

[roel22]

Having been there the last days of the burials I'm very pleased with the result of the DNA-test. I must say 75 id's is a lot more than I expected.

Roel

[Fedelmar]

Hendo ... I will pass on your apologies to Tim W.

Shirley ... Sherlock was not 'dobbed in' ... I had to go to work and then had business to attend to and just made it home at 5pm.

So far the list of Australians has grown to 20 as their names trickle through. 3 of those were not on the original list. At present the Australians stand at 199 at best estimation.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Fedelmar]

another news article:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/private-...00316-qcl1.html

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Peter Bennett]

I seems invidious to me to consider expunging the names of the identified men from places where they have been commemorated for years. What purpose would this serve? Reference to their new place of interment should be proudly added but the story of how they were "lost" but now are "found" should be told by the continuing physical existence of the old commmemorative arrangements.

Invidious or not (resent the inference !) they have done it on Thiepval, Tyne Cot, Loos etc to name but a few. The precedent has already been set.

[Andrew P]

An article from the West Australian about two of the Western Australian soldiers identified from the 32nd Battalion, Arnold Holmes & Alan Bennett.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newsh...after-94-years/

[Fedelmar]

Minister for Defence Media Mail List

------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE HON. GREG COMBET AM MP

Minister for Defence Personnel, Materiel and Science

THE HON. ALAN GRIFFIN MP

Minister for Veterans' Affairs

Wednesday 17 March, 2010

MSPA 032/10

First Fromelles soldiers identified

Greg Combet, Minister for Defence Personnel, Materiel and Science, and Alan Griffin, Minister for Veterans' Affairs, today announced the results of the first Joint Identification Board, held to identify the soldiers recently reburied in Fromelles.

"Of the 250 soldiers found, I am pleased to announce that 203 have been identified as Australians, and that 75 of these have been positively identified by name," said Mr Combet.

"The number of soldiers that we have been able to identify exceeds even our most optimistic forecasts. We are unlikely to identify every man; however we will continue to take all reasonable steps to maximise those named in the future.

"Each of the 250 sets of remains that were found have been analysed using all available historical, anthropological, artefact and DNA evidence. For those who have been identified so far, DNA proved to be a key piece of the identification puzzle.

"I am also pleased to say that we have strong reason to believe that more identification could occur in the future.

A second identification board will be conducted in early May 2010 to consider samples that were not available for the March board. Further Boards will be conducted in 2011-14 and concluded in 2014.

"Further identification is significantly increased with DNA from living relatives to cross-match against, so I would continue to ask all potential relatives to register with Army," said Mr. Combet.

People who believe their relative may be buried at Fromelles and have not already registered should do so at www.army.gov.au/fromelles or by calling 1800 019 090.

Alan Griffin, Minister for Veterans Affairs also welcomed the announcement, saying it gives their families and all Australians the opportunity to honour and recognise the service of these soldiers.

"All but one of the soldiers have been reburied in individual graves in the purposebuilt Fromelles (Pheasant Wood) Military Cemetery," said Mr Griffin.

"The final soldier will be laid to rest at a dedication ceremony on the 94th anniversary of the Battle of Fromelles on 19 July 2010.

"The soldiers are being buried in the new Fromelles (Pheasant Wood) Military Cemetery which is the first full cemetery the Commonwealth War Graves Commission has constructed in more than 50 years.

"The new cemetery is a fitting resting place for these brave men, who made the ultimate sacrifice.

"It is fantastic that we are able to present the names of these brave Australian soldiers to the nation and restore their identity to relatives.

"The battle of Fromelles was the bloodiest 24 hours in Australian history with 5,533 Australian soldiers killed, wounded or missing," said Mr Griffin.

Only three British soldiers could be identified by their force and none by name. Forty-four soldiers remain 'Known unto God'.

More than 1300 Australians soldiers died at Fromelles and have no known grave.

Media Note

A full list of the soldiers identified and also their photos is available at www.defence.gov.au.

Media contact: Rod Hilton (Greg Combet) 02 6277 7620 or 0458 276 619

Sasha Nimmo (Alan Griffin) 02 6277 7820 or 0437 863 109

Defence Media Liaison: 02 6127 1999 or 0408 498 664

Issued by Ministerial Support and Public Affairs, Department of Defence, Canberra, ACT

Phone: 02 6265 3343, Fax: 02 62656946

Media Releases are available via e-mail if you register at www.defence.gov.au/media

[Fedelmar]

The list has been released by the Australian Army and I can advise that the 75 identified soldiers are all Australian.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Fedelmar]

have broken down the figures:

8th Bge

32nd Bn - 47 - 19 identifed.

30th Bn - 26 - 13

31st Bn - 23 - 10

29th Bn - 20 - 6

8th MGC - 1 - 0

14th Bge

54th Bn - 32 - 10

55th Bn - 14 - 6

53rd Bn - 14 - 8

14th MGC - 3 - 2

56th Bn - 1 - 0

15th Bge

60th Bn - 8 - 1

59th Bn - 2 - 1

Div. Troops:

5th Div Eng (8th FCE) - 1

5th Pioneer Bn - 1

lets hope I have not made a mistake.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[ShirlD]

Hi Tim and Sandra, aka Sherlock and Marples do you know if any of those lads you researched and wrote about in "Digger" are among those who have been identified? It would be the most amazing story if so, they were quite hard to track down wern't they, Mind you, each one is special and very precious to the families who have relatives 'restored' to them in this way.

Cheers

Shirley

[Tjap]

Brilliant,

Many thanks Sandra,

The link to the list is http://www.army.gov.au/fromelles/docs/list...ed_soldiers.pdf

Nice to see one of the families I traced and wrote to here in England up there.

I am left wondering if the British identifications are being announced separately rather than as intimated in the earlier reports as a joint announcement between the Australian and British MOD's.

If there really are very few identifications of British soldiers then I am wondering if we've been looking for the wrong soldiers given the comment in one of the newspaper reports that you posted which said that the area where the Australian troops fell was on an area strewn with the corpses of British troops who had died a year earlier.

In another report it said that the clear up of bodies was in response to a German instruction to clear up the battlefield because of the approach of high summer with the increased risk of fly-borne diseases such as dysentery which were an important factor in morale, sickness and mortality amongst the troops. Is there any evidence for such an instruction? The construction of a light railway to assist the effort suggests that there was some forward planning and effort associated with the construction of the Fromelles pits.

I assume that the journalists involved got their information from somewhere.

Best,

Howard

[Andrew P]

Hi Tim and Sandra, aka Sherlock and Marples do you know if any of those lads you researched and wrote about in "Digger" are among those who have been identified? It would be the most amazing story if so, they were quite hard to track down wern't they, Mind you, each one is special and very precious to the families who have relatives 'restored' to them in this way.

Cheers

Shirley

Hi Shirley

There are some familiar names in the list that Tim & Sandra had written about in the last few editions of "Digger".

If it wasn't for their dedicated research work in tracking down these men's stories (& relatives) there would be quite a few less than 75 on that list.

Cheers

Andrew

[ianw]

Those statistics relating the unit numbers ID'ed to the numbers missing are fascinating. I am sure someone is doing some analysis right now.

There has just been a Fromelles report on the main BBC radio news and the last question asked was "Are there more unrecovered concentrations of remains in the Fromelles area?".

Various people have suggested to me over the years that there are. What does the Forum think and will the authorities welcome the prospect of repeating the recent efforts for more men?

[Fedelmar]

Thanks Shirley and Andrew ...

Ian ... the stats are interesting, I was speaking to Tim about this yesterday, in relation to where the bodies were located on the battlefield and in the pits.

It would be interesting to know what became of the UK boys ... if they are not amongst this lot and not in known graves then some of them must be somewhere!

Perhaps the MOD should be in touch with Peter Barton asking him for some information or some such

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[River97]

This is gold and hope it can only get better.

Been reading these stories on and off all day and they are a pleasure to read.

Cheers Andy.

[Fedelmar]

They certainly are Andy. A very emotional time and many wonderful phone conversations and emails from family.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Seadog]

Sandra, the lack of any response from either the CWGC or British MOD regarding possible British identifications is quite normal and to be expected. Their reluctance to divulge information regarding the discovery and identification of any British fallen is their usual reaction. The fact that the list detailing the names of the known has been released by the Australian authorities and is now available does them great credit and I would have thought that there would be some statement from the CWGC/MOD regarding the British discoveries (if indeed there were any) made to coincide with the Australian announcement.

Regards

Norman

[Fedelmar]

I would have thought so Norman even it was to say that no UK boys had been identified in this round.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Seadog]

My feeling exactly Sandra. The attitude of the CWGC and MOD here in Britain when soldiers remains are found is frankly not acceptable. The fact that you and many other dedicated people have managed to achieve such an excellent result at Fromelles is deserving of the highest praise but I have no doubt that should the circumstances been reversed and it was British remains that the whole story would not have a happy ending. If these comments seem a little “over the top” just consider the discovery of the 15 sets of remains at Beaucamps-Ligny in 2009 and the veil of silence that is in place with regard to any attempts at identification or indeed the simple process of informing the media here in the UK. This is a link to a French newspaper report note the fact that the remains were apparently excavated by what appears to be untrained civilians. I wonder how the Australians would have reacted if these remains were their countrymen?

Click for newspaper article:

Best Wishes

Norman

[Fromelles]

"203 have been identified as Australians"

Well there's a bit of homework to be done if there are 12 more Australians than were on the initial working list.

I've had listings of all the 32nd Battalion who died as a result of the Battle of Fromelles long before there was the rediscovery of the pit at Pheasant Wood. When Lambis was first putting together a Working List I lighlighted the following soldiers as needing inclusion on the list. The the following two soldiers are now on the working list but do give a good example of some of the misleading info contained within Pers Files:-

161 Pte Raymond Holstein Pflaum, 32nd Battn (incorrectly listed as 31st Battn on the working list) is (was) officially stated as DoW whilst in German Hands 24 Nov 16, ever though the Germans sent the same correspondance to the British concerning his demise as they had for all the others, stating he'd fallen at Fromelles 19 Jul 16.

1046 Pte Robert Grieve Moncrieff Scott is (was) thought to be buried at Rue Petillon Military Cemetery, Fleurbaix (Plot I., Row L., Grave 46)

The Imperial War Graves Commission wrote Scott's mother Mrs. Christian Brydon Grieve Scott of Upper Keir, Thornhill, Dumfriesshire, Scotland on the 10th October, 1924:-

"With reference to previous correspondence, I am directed to inform you that it has been necessary to renumber certain graves in Rue Petillon Military Cemetery and that in consequence the full number of the grave believed to be that of Private RGM Scott is now Plot 1, Row L, Grave 46. As you are aware the grave is marked by a cross bearing the name, regimental particulards and date of death of Private Scott, preceded by the words "Believed to be". This cross will in due course be replaced by a permanent memorial, and, should no subsequent doubt have arisen as to the identity of the grave, the words "Believed to be" can be omitted, if you wish, from the inscription on this stone."

I'd very much like to know the story behind his being believed to be buried at Rue Petillon cemetery.

These are just a couple of examples of the kinds of errors found throughout the records of the AIF and it wouldn't suprise me at all that these are the type of obstacles standing in the way of getting another 12 names added to the list. I am confident all the 32nd Battalion 'missing' have been identified and are on the working list. As for the other Units .... Let the search begin.

Dan

[Fedelmar]

Dan ... Tim and I discovered another four that are not on the working list and have been submitted. Andrew P another possible but has yet to be submitted.

Bright Blessings

Sandra