medal ribbon photos

[MBrockway]

That mimics the "disappearing" yellow very well

I think David's samples show the problem with the effect from the Plug-in coming out a bit too dark that Chris and I have also noticed.

This is coming together nicely all the same.

Cheers,

Mark

[4thGordons]

There is still something a bit odd.

My first interest in this was sparked by the disappearing stripe in the Gordons tartan.

Here is the effect on my (post WWI) Gordon kilt. This shows the darkening of the yellow well, but the blue/green is rendered too LIGHT in this respect (compared to period photos).

Any thoughts on this? - this was just an application of the filter - nothing else apart from cropping and reducing file size to fit. It th may have to do with the quality of the original picture?

Can anyone supply me with an equivalent digital picture of a SEAFORTH kilt (with the white stripe) - I would like to run that for comparisons as this stripe and the passing similarity of the badge often leads to problems distinguishing the two and a comparative picture might help.

It is interesting to that filtering for colour reveals some suspcious red spot/stains on the kilt because of the way it darkens them!

Chris

[Muerrisch]

should have thought of posting original colour strip, herewith:

also, we may be in pursuit of a Holy Grail which does not exist, in that one ortho. photo of a subject may be/will be different from another, due to the original chemicals, the original processing, and/ or the subsequent ageing, and the rendering on modern media!

[Muerrisch]

Here is a fabulous source for period photos of medals and ribbons in wear, many of them [from date or deduction] clearly ortho.

http://www.britishmedalforum.com/viewtopic...?f=9&t=5798

Hope it works .... I am a member.

[MartH]

Grumpy your link does not work for non members of the medal forum.

[MBrockway]

Grumpy your link does not work for non members of the medal forum.

It's free to Register and then you are passed through to Grumpy's target page.

Cheers,

Mark

[Muerrisch]

The British Medals site is an excellent one ..... a bit heavy with fanatical collectors, but a fount of great wisdom.

[themonsstar]

I was given a tip a few years ago about looking at old military photographs with medal ribbons. Find a chart of coloured medal ribbons, then print it off in black and white. it works for me.

Next one

[4thGordons]

I think for many ribbons and almost all post 1920 photos this works well (and for many people this is entirely sufficient - we have our anoraks on here!) but this is the same as rendering in greyscale and some effects (the darkening of yellow etc) are not captured by this.

here is a comparison using your pic:

Colour - BW - Ortho. (the most obvious difference are the MM and DCM in this selection - see also the DFM and AFM)

Chris

[Andrew Upton]

Can anyone supply me with an equivalent digital picture of a SEAFORTH kilt (with the white stripe) - I would like to run that for comparisons as this stripe and the passing similarity of the badge often leads to problems distinguishing the two and a comparative picture might help.

Short memory - posts 89 and 90 any good?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...24122&st=75

http://s4.postimage.org/BQwXJ-6d579c861676...b722f417be2.jpg

[4thGordons]

Thanks -hadn't realised the larger images were linked too

Straight Ortho. Conversion......................................Darkened and reduced contrast to try and mirror older images.

I'm still not sure that this conversion is perfect.

Chris

[Muerrisch]

So, where are we?

I suggest that the automatic 'auto' conversion to ortho. is a bit harsh, but that nobody has come up with a magic refinement.

I also suggest that there may be no 'correct' answer, given the possibility for variation between one ortho shot and another once reproduced all those years ago.

For my narrow need, I will, until something better turns up, calibrate [a rather exact word for a rather inexact process] my results with known ortho medal and medal ribbon groups, such as the FRichards DCM MM 1914 star previously posted on this thread.

[4thGordons]

I will, until something better turns up, calibrate [a rather exact word for a rather inexact process]

"Fudge" ?

I agree. There are significant variations in the original pictures (natural light vs flash, sun vs cloud etc), incorrect exposure - of original and in printing, degrading of image over time (especially loss of contrast which is significant in respect of this) all of which introduce signicant variability

I would agree with your summation of the current state.

I think the gimp conversion does something a bit odd with blues but is clearly the easiest process we have and the effects can be toned down using normal image software (I am finding gimp - although powerful - less than intuitive so I am making conversions in gimp then adjusting in photoshop)

In my view this has been a useful and interesting exercise. I will continue to tinker.

Chris

[Muerrisch]

yes, I cannot leave the subject alone ..........

tinker on!

We called calibration either 'Cook's Constant' or 'Bench Factor'!

[MBrockway]

I am finding gimp - although powerful - less than intuitive so I am making conversions in gimp then adjusting in photoshop

In my view this has been a useful and interesting exercise. I will continue to tinker.

Chris

Yes ... GIMP certainly has a steep learning curve! I spent about 20 minutes the other night trying to work out how to bring up some sort of tool that would let me change the colours of some lines and some text I was adding to a map! Pretty basic stuff!

Most software has its idiosyncracies that take a wee while to get used to, but GIMP has these in spades! It is powerful though, and I'm hoping it's worth it!

I'll continue tinkering too.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

I'll continue tinkering too.

Cheers,

Mark

Tinkering will I'm afraid have to wait - my main machine has just stopped working.

Looks like the memory module connectors have got unsoldered from the motherboard somehow, which may be terminal

I'm now limping on with a very old steam-driven laptop, which certainly cannot cope with any heavy image processing.

I haven't lost any data, but at present I can't reach most of it including recent e-mails, contacts etc., so please bear with me Pals if any of you are expecting anything back from me soon!

Cheers,

Mark

[4thGordons]

Sorting through my pictures and found this one.

Post war Sgts with medals (even a couple helpfully with medals attached) - taken on orthochromatic film (see kilts and BWM) - looks like 14/15 star, BWM, Vic and a couple of MMs? Man on right appears to have different but I am not sure what. Sashes would have been crimson(?)

and quite a selection of insignia to keep Grumpy happy!

[4thGordons]

Detail - HD flashes (red/blue) also visible

Interesting shoulder titles also - appear to be T ? Gordon (s - if post 1922) but in 3 pieces rather than 1 piece - 3 lines?

[MBrockway]

Chris - great pic: Grumpy Heaven!

Cheers,

Mark

[Staffsyeoman]

MM and Bar... all wearing the 'Highway Decorators' badge (yes, I know that's a WW2 label) .. the LG in cloth with no wreath...

"Target rich environment!"

[Muerrisch]

yes!

TF or TA, the efficiency stars, and the LG without wreath are definitive.

[4thGordons]

yes!

TF or TA, the efficiency stars, and the LG without wreath are definitive.

In case the "T" on their epaulettes wasn't definitive enough

I suspect there cannot be too many Gordons Sgts with an MM & Bar (I had not noticed a bar was evident) - perhaps on this basis I will be able to identify which battalion this is.

Chris

[impala_ood]

Dear all,

I've tried getting my head round all this colour business but at the moment I still feel like I don't know my a**e from my elbow! It probably doesn't help that I'm a bit colour blind!!

Could any of you wise young heads tell me if this officer looks to be wearing a DSO and IGSM? or DSO and 1914/15 Star? I know who the officer is, but knowing which ribbons he is wearing might help me date it.

Regards

Richard

PS - if anyone does feel they can contribute to possible identifying these ribbons it would helpful if you could comment here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=185325&hl=

[Muerrisch]

As far as colours are rendered on old orthochromatic film [most, but not all film until mid 1920s] the consensus seems to be;

yellow renders very dark, sometimes black

orange nearly so

scarlet nearly nearly so

green nearly same as the drab of SD

blue paler than drab.

However, a complication is in the amount of pastel [added white] in the above, because white as such renders white [and black black]. Thus a very pastel yellow does not render black, and a pastel blue is virtually white. Colours with black mixed such as navy blue and brown remain dark.

Photos after about 1930 are much more often panchromatic film so you see what you are used to.

A good example of ortho rendering is old photos of Guardsmen in Home Service Tunic [scarlet, dark navy facings]. The dark navy [which is very black, renders dark grey and, surprise surprise, so does the scarlet, so, unless the collar and cuffs were edged with white, they are indistinguishable.

[Laird of Camster]

On 18/02/2010 at 15:51, MBrockway said:

Not quite in our period, but I thought I'd post this anyway as it covers the Sudan/Egypt Campaign medals:

[source: Military Modelling magazine - Vol.35, No.1, 2005]

 

This is Serjeant Simpson, KRRC, Master Tailor at the Rifles Depot in approx 1898.

The caption to the picture states his medals include ...

 

1. Egypt & Sudan Medal
2. Queen's Sudan Medal
3. QSA
4. KSA
5. Khedive's Sudan Medal
6. Khedive's Star
7. and the MSM.

That seems to be one short to me! One would imagine with that Service, he'd also be due the LSGC?

Giving letters to the medals in picture reading L-R, then I think I can see ...

a: MSM ??

b: Egypt & Sudan Medal

c: Queen's Sudan Medal

d: QSA ??

e: KSA ??

f: LSGC ?? but seems out of sequence here ??

g: Khedive's Sudan Medal ??

h: Khedive's Star

As you know though Pals - I'm no medals expert, so I'm hunkered in my bunker expecting incoming

Cheers,

Mark

P.S. Still hunting for VC ribbons, which you'd think would be quite easy in the 60th, but most of my pics of Great War KRRC recipients are poor quality, head shots only, or not in uniform! The KRRC Association ran a series in the Journal on the VC Winners in the early 2000's so I'm now going through those.

 

 

Could (a) be the Zulu war medal without clasp, perhaps? 

 

Edited 1 October , 2018 by Laird of Camster