Baghdad North Gate Cemetery 1/4 Norfolk

[PRC]

4 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Next time you get access to Findmypast and try the following search you will get 337 results for the Norfolks missing 19/4/17.

I was keeping track as I went through the various sources to see if FMP had indexed anything in the way of a British Red Cross enquiry and possibly came away with a slightly jaundiced view.

The Official Casualty list that appeared in the Times of the 11th June 1917 featured 88 names, on analysis split 69 believed to have died on the 19th April 1917, one believed to have died on the 9th April 1917 and 18 prisoners.

82 have a British Red Cross enquiry dated 1917 indexed on FMP.
81 of those are under the same six digit service number that appeared in the OCL. 8818 W. Rudman from the OCL has a British Red Cross record under his six digit number 203315.
Some have forename expansions from just initials, while others have some creative errors - perhaps transcription errors in the original or in the transfer to FMP but bear no relation to any other source at this time (so a bit like the Medical Admission Register transcripts)
I didn't do a complete run through but a sample 10% check in addition to the 'missing' six failed to throw up a single instance where the British Red Cross enquiry was shown under the pre 1917 TF number.

The Commonwealth War Grave Commission database then has an additional 77 other ranks recorded as having died on the 19th April 1917.
35 have a British Red Cross enquiry dated 1917 indexed on FMP - all under their six digit number.
Sample 10% check of the others didn't bring up any British Red Cross enquiry under the pre 1917 TF number.

Of the five prisoners of war identified from the ICRC records only two have a British Red Cross enquiry, both under their six digit numbers and dated 1917. The other three have nothing under their pre 1917 TF number.

Of the two prisoners of war identified from the War Office Weely List No. 2 only one has a British Red Cross enquiry - six digit, 1917. The other has nothing under either possible number

So that gives you 120 potentially of your 337 British Red Cross enquiries.

But leaves me wondering how much faith to put in the source. If this was 120 individual enquiries from families \ next of kin all quoting a date of the 19th April 1917 then that is a different situation to say something like the County Territorial Force Association turning round an OCL and sending it off to the British Red Cross, or even the British Red Cross taking it upon themselves to scour the OCL for the missing. Could the date of the 19th April then turn out to be an assumption applied across the board rather than one established through contact with the military authorities. Don't get me wrong, I think the 25 men I've listed were almost certainly taken prisoner at 2nd Gaza, I'm just not sure that the British Red Cross enquiry dataset as transcribed on FMP is going to be the conclusive proof for that.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

As we know, the OCLs themselves were prone to error. A subsequent correction (if there was one) is often hard to find, particularly for 1917 transition The Times> Daily Casualty List.

The BRC/StJohns enquiries are going to be subject to transcription errors but I suspect the family were sometimes more up-to-date than some official records at times. Probably swings and roundabouts.

But the key thing it provides names worth checking and can provide info not to be found elsewhere.

Who has the original enquiry cards?

Findmypast say this, and I imagine it is these periodic lists that have been scanned by Findmypast:

"Between 1915 and 1918 The British Red Cross & Order of St John published regular lists of men missing in action during the First World War, about whom enquiries had been made. These lists were published at regular intervals, each list cancelling all lists previous to it.

 

Typical information includes a man’s name, regiment, battalion and company (for infantry battalions). Ranks are rarely given, but details about the date of casualty, the place where this occurred, and sometimes extensive additional information are included."

 

Edited 18 May , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

I note that a test sample of the 300+ names suggests enquiry made 20/7/17. I presume this is the publication date rather than the individual enquiry date originated by the family.

[charlie962]

41 minutes ago, PRC said:

failed to throw up a single instance where the British Red Cross enquiry was shown under the pre 1917 TF number.

All the enquiries I looked at were under the six digit number but just occasionally the 4 digit number was noted as well.

Edit.

Of the 337, 325 are indexed under six digit service number, 2 with a 5 digit number (probably transcript error because they begin 20..) and 10 with no number (presumably includes officers)

Edited 18 May , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

BRC/StJohns search doesn't seem to offer battalion as a keyword but I did get 155 of the 337 coming up as 'wounded and missing rather than just 'missing'.

[PRC]

31 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Between 1915 and 1918 The British Red Cross & Order of St John published regular lists of men missing in action during the First World War, about whom enquiries had been made. These lists were published at regular intervals, each list cancelling all lists previous to it.

So nothing there to indicate all the enquiries initiated from the families \ next of kin  - could just be one \ a few enquiries from a County Association \ Hardship relief committee \ local SSAFA - and so could be the same mistake made multiple times. Given the volumes involved it wouldn't be all of them, but in the kind of research I use to do in my working life the potential presence of errors in the information undermines the veracity of everything taken from that source.

It's a personal thing - I'd be reluctant at this stage to take the next step and treat the BRC & St Johns as gospel, but I can understand why others might not share that reluctance.

If only the two Norfolk Battalions hadn't been involved at 1st Gaza this would be a non-issue!

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

5 hours ago, PRC said:

If only the two Norfolk Battalions hadn't been involved at 1st Gaza this would be a non-issue!

What were the stats for Norfolks for 1st Gaza per war diaries ?

[charlie962]

23 hours ago, PRC said:

203453 / 4751 Arthur Howes...

..No obvious repatriation record in the Weekly Casualty List

See Daily List dated 22/1/19

[PRC]

19 hours ago, charlie962 said:

What were the stats for Norfolks for 1st Gaza per war diaries ?

Continuing to struggle to find then via AMOT. The only page catalogued as “4th Battalion War Diary” is actually a Christmas card for the 8th Battalion from 1915 - https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/3076358

Amending that web address to scroll forward takes you into the 1/5th Battalion War Diary, but after a page reporting a very, very brief summary of the campaign at Gallipoli it leaps forward to the 21st May 1917.

Using the same approach to scroll back takes me into a 1st Battalion War Diary extract ending in October 1916.

Changing the search criteria to “Gaza” does bring up the 1/4th Battalion War Diary entry in connection with 3rd Gaza but not as far as I can tell 2nd Gaza.

Using the Regimental History as a proxy for the numbers in the War Diary, (the most likely source) for 1st Gaza and reconciling it against CWGC and SDGW gives:-

1/4th Battalion 1st Gaza.

• OH. Two other ranks killed and seven wounded.
• CWGC. Two other ranks killed – 200966 Private A.J. Kemp and 200548 Lance Serjeant W. Smith. Both buried Gaza War Cemetery
• SDGW. Albert James Kemp and William Smith shown as Killed in Action.

1/5th Battalion 1st Gaza.

• OH. One officer (Captain Wenn) killed and two other ranks wounded.
• CWGC. No fatalities of the Battalion recorded on this day. Captain William Wenn, 1/5th Battalion is shown as died 1st April 1917 and is buried at Kantara. The CWGC grave register is noted that he died of wounds received at Gaza.
• SDGW. William Wenn Died of Wounds.

For me what would be close to a clincher in taking the 1st Gaza casualties out of consideration is an OCL that confirmed those deaths but no others, put a name to the 9 wounded of the two battalions, (and of course in an ideal world they all had surviving service records that confirmed the wounds related to 1st Gaza!) and had no missing men who were potentially from those battalions.

Still wouldn’t be absolute confirmation. But for me would shift the dial over from having to prove the men captured were taken at 2nd Gaza to having to prove that they weren’t.

Unfortunately I’ve spent a morning trying a whole variety of search criteria on The Times Digital Archive for the period 01/04/1917 – 30/06/1917 and have turned up nothing in the way of an OCL. Even  Captain William Wenn only gets a death announcement in the personals column.

So for now I’m left frustrated.

Peter

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

Even  Captain William Wenn only gets a death announcement in the personals column.

W Wenn, Captain, Died of Wounds, Daily Cas List dated 10/4/17

[charlie962]

Peter, the 1st Gaza wounded are in the Cas List dated 25/4/17, which, using 200??? Numbers leads me to this excellent scrap indexed by Findmypast:

201380 Dalye above is Daly Edward, prev 5750, subsequent Labour Corps 621827. OCL 11/12/17.

Edited 19 May , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Sidetracking a bit, Neale 201384 is shown by CWGC as died 25/11/15. This should be 25/11/18 as per the grave registration.

Would you have a word with CWGC?

[PRC]

On 17/04/2023 at 20:05, rob carman said:

Here is a photo of Herevy and others from a 1/5 Norfolk photoghraph album.   It shows C and D Coys, Officers’ Mess, In Seiret, 15 April 1917, just  48 h  before Gaza2.  Left: Hervey and Read, Right: Tett, Beck and Barton.  All, and the likely photographer (Tom Purdy), were 1/5 Bn officers.  Maj. Purdy must have been evacuated (kidney inflammation) soon after this photo wa taken; he was in Kantara on 19 April on a train going south and would not return to the Front for over a week.  (Purdy Archive via Norfolk in the First World War: Somme to Armistice Schools and Community Learning Pack). 

Rob,

Just going back and checking a few things - any idea who Read and Tett are?

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

@charlie962 - thank you for continuing to provide a fresh set of eys, (and sources!) for resolving the gaps

13 hours ago, charlie962 said:

W Wenn, Captain, Died of Wounds, Daily Cas List dated 10/4/17

I have Wenn now -

Image courtesy The Times Digital Archive.

Unfortunately even when you tell the search engine on The Times Digital Archive website where to look it still came back with "No result". As for the adjoining names, Parry got a hit but Granger and Loder didn't.

13 hours ago, charlie962 said:

the 1st Gaza wounded are in the Cas List dated 25/4/17

Kemp and Smith are also recorded in the same list under killed in action.

Image courtesy The Times Digital Archive.

Looking at the Norfolk Regiment 20xxxx numbers in that list under wounded gives us :-

201119 H.V. Barber (Norwich), 200933 C.Cock, (Norwich), 201330 Cpl. R. Elmore, (Ramsey), 200188 A. Flatt, (Mendham), 200971 L. Fiddament, (Norwich), 201279 R. Gough, (Blackfriars Road, S.E.), 201354 W. Harvey, (East Ham), 200219 W.T. Holland, (Norwich), 201384 W.B. Neale, (Plaistow), 200739 S. Parsons, (Blakeney), 200758 G.Rook, (Melton Constable) and 200352 C.W.G. Southgate (Downham Market).

So the Official History, (and by implication the war diary) has the 4th Battalion casualty list for 1st Gaza running to 7 Other Ranks wounded.
The Official Casualty List gives us 12 Other Ranks wounded.
And the admin list from part way through the process prior to publishing the OCL gives us 13 Other Ranks wounded.

Wouldn't it be nice if just for once all these sources were in lockstep with each other

As you allude to, 201380 Dalye (Daly) is the difference, his name presumably being withheld to resolve the spelling issue \ make sure the wrong individual hadn't been identified. But then makes you wonder why the whole wounded list wasn't held back - they weren't exactly under any compunction it would seem to get the OCL's out.

But on a wider note it just undermines confidence in the completeness of any of the sources.

The Official History doesn't mention the 4th Battalion having any missing at 1st Gaza, but if the wounded figures were taken from the War Diary then that data is flawed
The internal memo is about adding home towns, and while it lists killed and wounded, the absense of missing may just mean they weren't any, or simply that it wasn't part of the exercise at that point in time.
The OCL is missing a name of a 4th Battalion man notified to the records office as wounded at 1st Gaza. So devils advocate would be that if that can be shown to be proven, what else has been held back.

I'm still working on the basis that the 4th Battalion men shown as captured "Gaza" were actually taken at 2nd Gaza unless really strong evidence emerges to the contrary.

13 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Would you have a word with CWGC?

I will do

Cheers,
Peter

[rob carman]

On 19/05/2023 at 19:02, PRC said:

Read

I do not recall where I found these photos and details.  They are not the result of my efforts   I suspect they are cut and pasted from a medal auction catalog.  IF you know otherwsie please let me know.,

2/Lt Terrance Capon Read 1/5 Bn, Norfolk Regt and pre-war 6 (Cyclist) Bn, Norfolk Regt.  Read worked for the Norwich Union Fire Insurance Society in Shanghai.  ‘Terry’ joined the company on 14 April 1902 after Woodbridge Grammar School. According to the staff magazine: "It was not long before his sterling qualities as a sportsman attracted the athletic members of the Staff, and Read became a regular player for the excellent football team which then represented the office."  Read attended 6 Bn, Norfolk Regt camp, Repps in 1909 (top).  He was appointed to Shanghai in January 1912 "to fill an important position in connection with the Society's business there", managing the insurance department of the company's agents Messrs Fearon, Daniel & Co. He joined local volunteers at the start of the war and came back to England in December 1914 to enlist. According to his obituary: "His enthusiastic patriotism meeting with many rebuffs at the hands of the military authorities, he went direct to the War Office, and, greatly daring, asked for his commission. A wordy warfare ensued, but Read eventually emerged triumphantly from the building, his commission - his passport to eternity, as it turned out - in his pocket." Gazetted to the Norfolk Regiment early in 1915 (bottom) he volunteered for special duty at the front after completing his training and on 22 Aprl 1917 he died of wounds received almost certainly on 19 April.  He was remembered in the staff magazine as an: “absolutely reliable and unflinchingly loyal friend… killed in Gaza playing the game to the last.” The General Manager wrote to his uncle that he “was very highly thought of in our service and I had marked him out for promotion when, as I hoped, he returned to us at the close of hostilities”. He was 32 when he died.  Entered theatre of war in 1916, DOW, Palestine, 22 April 1917, Aged 32, he was the son of Mr  AW Read of ‘Boscombe’, 92 Christchurch Street, Ipswich and is buried in Gaza War Cemetery. 461 British War and Victory Medals (2 Lieut. T. C. Read), extremely fine, estimate at undated auction:  £140-180. 

Edited 22 May , 2023 by rob carman
spelling

[rob carman]

I cannot locate Tett and the original posting details do not produce anything via google.  I will keep looking.  Until then, he could be anything  from my typing error to an attached officer.

Rob.

[PRC]

23 hours ago, rob carman said:

Until then, he could be anything  from my typing error to an attached officer.

Rob,

Thanks for looking. It was the attached officer scenario that made me hold back from assuming Read was Terence \ Terrence \ Terrance Capon Read - all the first name variations turn up in various sources

As for Tett, looks like two potential MiC's for a 'Lieutenant' Tett.  2nd Lieutenant Harry Tett, Somerset Light Infantry, didn't go out to France until 1918 and Lieutenant William Robert Tett didn't go to Egypt until late 1917, so both can be discounted. Of course we could be looking at a Tett who didn't apply for his medals, or whose MiC doesn't come up in response to a basic search. When I did a search for the British Army Monthly List for May 1917 as part of the wider investigation I wasn't coming up with anyone with the surname Tett on the establishment of the 5th Battalion.

There is a Lieutenant Arthur Brookes Tebbutt who was 1/5th Norfolks and who died at 2nd Gaza. However at the time of the battle he was attached to the 163rd Machine Gun Company, MGC. So unless that attachment occurred in the few days between the photograph and the battle, or he was visiting old friends, difficult to see why he would appear in an officers mess photograph.

So for now remains a mystery - the teaching pack no longer appears to be available and the images taken by the photographer along with his other Great War era papers appear to be held offline at the county archive.

Cheers,
Peter

[rob carman]

 

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Lieutenant Arthur Brookes Tebbutt

I found another site (http://slideplayer.com/slide/17956524/) that shows the same image and names "Tett" in the legend. 

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

As for Tett, looks like two potential MiC's for a 'Lieutenant' Tett.  2nd Lieutenant Harry Tett, Somerset Light Infantry, didn't go out to France until 1918 and Lieutenant William Robert Tett didn't go to Egypt until late 1917, so both can be discounted. Of course we could be looking at a Tett who didn't apply for his medals, or whose MiC doesn't come up in response to a basic search. When I did a search for the British Army Monthly List for May 1917 as part of the wider investigation I wasn't coming up with anyone with the surname Tett on the establishment of the 5th Battalion.

The 1918 Army List (Aug, I think)  shows WR Tett as 1st Reserve Garrison Bn Suffolk Regt, attached 1/5th Norfolks. Lieutenant, (seniority 1/7/17).

As you said the date noted as arrival in Egypt should rule him out but?

[PRC]

3 hours ago, rob carman said:

I found another site (http://slideplayer.com/slide/17956524/) that shows the same image and names "Tett" in the legend. 

Thanks for digging that one out Rob - some useful images, and certainly the one we are currently interested in seems to have 'Tett' captioned.

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

The 1918 Army List (Aug, I think)  shows WR Tett as 1st Reserve Garrison Bn Suffolk Regt, attached 1/5th Norfolks. Lieutenant, (seniority 1/7/17).

As you said the date noted as arrival in Egypt should rule him out but?

Well the MiC shows October 1917, although giving the vagaries of how these things were completed that could be the month he sailed from the UK or the month he landed in Eygpt.

Image courtesy Ancestry.

But going back to the May 1917 British Army List I've been using, it would appear that Second Lieutenant W.R. Tett, 1st (Reserve) Garrison Battion, Suffolk Regiment, has been attached to the 1/5th Battalion Norfolk Regiment. (Column 1020i) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104617448

Going back to the April 1917 British Army List he is just shown with the Suffolks (Column 1020i). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104052092

Given the time lag in amendments being reflected in the Monthly Army List, I suspect he was attached pre 2nd Gaza, but there remains the possibility he was one of the replacements drafted in to backfill the losses. For now only the caption seems to support his presence with them pre-2nd Gaza.

As for that date on the MiC - if they are going to play with my mind like that I'm going to need to go and have a good lie down

Cheers,
Peter

[rob carman]

Here are the Gaza I and Gaza II numbers from the 1/4 Norfollks war diary.  They are from a mid-1960s copy of a typescript provided to Old Comrades.

Edited 28 May , 2023 by rob carman

[PRC]

3 minutes ago, rob carman said:

Here are the Gaza I and Gaza II numbers from the 1/4 Norfollks war diary.

Thanks Rob. The events described for the 27th March makes it sound very unlikely the 1/4th Norfolks had anyone taken prisoner that day, which ties in with everything found so far. I'm now even more convinced that the individuals who turn up on ICRC reports as captured "Gaza" were all taken at 2nd Gaza.

Cheers,
Peter