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Remembered Today:

Baghdad North Gate Cemetery 1/4 Norfolk


Steve Potts

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Mates,

Now we have confirmed young Hervey, is there anyway to check the missing four officers stated as MIA after the battle from the 1/5 Bn

Were thery all killed as none appear as PoW or do they?

S.B

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2 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

Now we have confirmed young Hervey, is there anyway to check the missing four officers stated as MIA after the battle from the 1/5 Bn

Were thery all killed as none appear as PoW or do they?

Summarising my previous post.

Two of the four are Second Lieutenant Wilfred Gordon Aron Joseph, 1st Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment, attached 1/5th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment and Second Lieutenant Robert Charles Middleton Harper, General List (New Armies), attached 1/5th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment. Both KiA on the 19th April 1917.

There are then three more possibles - whichever one didn't serve with the 1/5th will most likely be the missing officer in the casualty list for the 1/4th.
Second Lieutenant Christopher James Alladyce Buckell, 3rd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment.
Second Lieutenant Reginald Cuthbert Chilvers, 10th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment.
Second Lieutenant Alec James Porter, 1st Battalion, Norfolk Regiment.
All three Killed in Action 19th April 1917 and either buried in the Gaza War Cemetery or remembered on the Jerusalem Memorial.

Cheers,
Peter

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Norfolk Museum have loaded this document to AMOT which shows Chilvers as 1/4th Bn.

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Two letters and notes by Captain K.H. Fielding. Letters to the editor of the Eastern Daily Press and Canon Grant of Norwich concerning the commemoration of the 12th anniversery of the Second Battle of Gaza. Notes by Fielding refering to the Regimental History..Norfolk Regiment 1/4th Battalion.World War I World War I, Egypt and Palestine.author/collector Fielding, K.H. (Captain). . .

 No date available

This media belongs to: ROYAL NORFOLK REGIMENT MUSEUM 

Chilvers appeared in Lancing College News:

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Edited by charlie962
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That letter I just posted suggests Porter was also 1/4th? 

 

Private. Alec James Porter

Name: Porter, Alec James

Rank: Private.

College: Mill Hill, London

Ship / Unit: U.P.S., 2/10th Middlesex Regiment.

Date of Death: 1917

War: The Great War

Type: Roll of Honour

 

Profile: ALEC JAMES PORTER 211, Unthank Road, Norwich. Born 2nd July, 1894. 123, M.H. 9, 1910 to 12, 1912, Collinson House. School O.T.C. Bisley VIII. Timber Merchant. Commissioned June, 1915, 10th Norfolk Regt. Lieut. Attached 1/4th Norfolk Regiment. Served in Egypt and Palestine.Wounded once. Killed at first Battle of Gaza, 1917.In command of a Lewis gun detachment. Son of Mr. and Mrs. Thomas P. Porter, Madagascar. Extract. To Captain Herbert, from Adjutant, 1/4th Norfolks, July 19th, 1917:— "In reply to your letter of inquiry about Second Lieut. Alec J. Porter, very little news can be obtained as to what actually happened in the latter stages of the attack."He was leading his platoon in the front wave of the battalion to within about 250 yards of the enemy trenches. Finding hardly anyone left to support him, he got his platoon down and opened fire with the few men he had with him."An order apparently was given to retire, which, according to some of his men who have since rejoined from hospital, he would not listen to, until it became obvious that that was the only thing to do. "He and his men then proceeded to crawl back to a small gully which seemed to offer cover. Mr. Porter was seen attempting this, but was not seen again. I am afraid that is all I can give you as I have asked every possible man who might know anything about him. (Signed) "T. E. JENNINGS, Lieut., "Adjt., 1/4th Norfolks."

Source: Mill Hill Book of Rememberance and War Record 1914-1919

Volume: Millhill

   

Copyright © Genealogy Supplies (Jersey) Limited 2023 

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Edited by charlie962
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Buckell is also shown in that letter as 1/4th.

I've not yet found a text for him.

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So that leaves us with two 1/5th Officers unaccounted for, possibly prisoners, possibly dead but under a different unit or who like Hervey rejoined and subsequently died of their wounds.

One potential is Second Lieutenant Terence Capon Read, 1/5th Battalion and buried at the Gaza War Cemetery. The original grave registration document "ditto's" him anongst the dead of the 19th April 1917, but his actual webpage shows the 22nd. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/651134/t-c-read/

Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as Died of Wounds. The same status is repeated on the Great War Roll of Honour for Terence, https://www.aviva.com/about-us/our-heritage/about-archive/

as well as the Ipswich War Memorial website, the source of the image below. https://www.ipswichwarmemorial.co.uk/terrance-capon-read/

TerranceCaponReadfromAvivacomheritageviatheIpswichWarMemorialwebsite.png.0ea0f2caead90eceba1ecdb953859c91.png

Of course he could have been one of the 9 officers recorded in the Official History as wounded, which would put us back to still looking for those two remaining missing officers.

Thinking caps definately required for this one :)

Cheers,
Peter

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On 16/04/2023 at 17:58, PRC said:

Missing……1 Officer

That 1/4th officer missing would presumably be Harold James Bradshaw, 2Lt, 4th Norfolk's, taken pow 19/4/17 and died of wounds in Turkish hands at Nazareth 18th(perODGW) or 19 May 1917. 

These CasList dates for him may lead to others?

2/5/17 wounded 

13/6/17 wounded and missing 

11/9/17 prev wounded and missing now died pow in Turkish hands. 

Birmingham Daily Post 30/7/17 courtesy Findmypast newspapers

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His two ICRC cards 

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C_G1_E_01_03_0005_0020.JPG.1716243e36dfd08fe747584d9516c053.JPG

Edited by charlie962
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Peter, if it helps, here is The Times list dated 2/5/17, sourced from The Genealogist:

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For those casualty lists it seems that reporting of officers wounded for 1/4th and1/5th was very fragmented. There seem to be some 1/5th men Times 1/5/17, some 1/4th men 2/5/17 (as caslist above) and then scattered individuals during month.

Norfolks Museum have loaded some docs to AMOT and I see two pages of officers serving 1/4th bn Palestine which might be useful. Link is here and the two lists are very feint on the second page. Might help for confirmation of unit for a given officer, if you can read it. There may be similar for 1/5th officers further on? 

https://www.theogilbymuster.com/search/results#/?query=AMOT062_WW1_RMD973.NWHRM.6760_0155&page=2&type=flex&sort=Regimental_Collection asc&filterBy=&spellCheck=true&recordView=3077387

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Fantastic information Charlie – I can see this keeping me quiet for days :)

13 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Norfolks Museum have loaded some docs to AMOT and I see two pages of officers serving 1/4th bn Palestine which might be useful. Link is here and the two lists are very feint on the second page. Might help for confirmation of unit for a given officer, if you can read it. There may be similar for 1/5th officers further on? 

I could find some of the equivalent lists for the other Battalions but not the 5th. There is a list of officers who died serving with the 5th Battalion In Egypt & Palestine which includes Tebbutt, (the 163rd MG Company Officer) but not the two officers who were attached from other Regiments. It didn't throw up any additional names of deaths on the 19th April 1917 to the ones we already know about.

I'd assumed that the 1/5th War Diary didn't list all the names of the officers killed, wounded & missing as I would have thoought it likely the Official History would have cribbed the detail. But as I was in the AMOT page for the Royal Norfolk Museum I took a look, and there is a slight discrepancy on the totals. Bearing in mind we've already had a similar statement for the 1/4th Battalion figures in the Official Regimental History I beginning to wonder how much credence to give to those figures.

In the immediate aftermatch of the battle the officer casualties figures are 1 Killed, 9 wounded, 6 wounded and missing.5thBattalion2ndGazaCasualtydiscrepancy.png.1c600482084993cd6c9c81a10eb087d6.png
Lieutenant Hervey will be one of the six wounded and missing, while the other 5 are likely to be the officers who were subsequently recorded as dead - Grissell, Beck, Birkbeck and Cubitt certainly came in that category. That brings us back to the 4 Missing in the Official History, for which at the moment we have Joseph and Harper, the two attached officers. If Tebbutt was also considered in those Official History casualty figures, then that leaves a discrepancy of 1 - for which currently there is no obvious candidate.

So I will quietly work my way through all those lists and hope something will pop up.

Meanwhile the Other Ranks breakdown is a bit more useful from the War Diary. We appear to have gone down from Lieutenant Buxton's estimate of 50 prisoners to 30 in the War Diary, although maybe his estimate included the wounded and missing.

One other initial thought is that the missing other ranks in the official regimental history comes to 328 for the two battalions. If that is the case then I suspect the other ranks casualty list from The Times dated 11th June 1917 is the 1/4th Battalion missing only.

Cheers,
Peter

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Peter, again at the risk of flooding you with info, but in the hope it helps when you are doing lists and trying to eliminate people, here is a repatriation list from the ICRC R52247. 

These 1/5th and 1/4th officers are not 19/4/17 men.

Tallent was taken late (Nov) 1917. 

Fawkes was taken 12/8/1915

Coxon was taken 12/8/1915

Gardiner was taken late (Nov)1917.

 

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Just to clarify Askin was attached 1/8Hants and taken c 19/4/17.

Edited by charlie962
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Charlie,

Interesting as the 1/8 Bn Hants record him (Askin) as Atkin one of the four shown PoW from this Bn 19-4-17

Thats if also correct?

S.B

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17 minutes ago, stevenbecker said:

(Askin) as Atkin one of the four shown PoW from this Bn 19-4-17

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Cheers

Another to correct.

S.B

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 16/04/2023 at 23:11, charlie962 said:

There's a block of Norfolks reported missing in The Times 11/6/17 with report date 28/5/17. They have numbers looking like the 1/4th and 1/5th men. Sorry this extract not good quality:

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Add Hewitt 200217 Wounded and missing.

Add Lee 201407 missing believed killed.

All on same page of the Times

This has been nagging away at me for the last few weeks, as finding out the information should help with my own projects.

I’ve started writing a reply several times to show how complex even the 4th Battalion casualties are.  I’d commenced there as on the face of it with smaller numbers to examine it should be simpler. But the intended reply kept getting bogged down in one-offs and “exceptions” – all to my mind as a result of missing information, mistranscribed information and downright inconsistant information.

So to try and keep it simple, the Official Casualty List for the Norfolk Regiment from the edition of The Times dated 11th June 1917 that has been posted by @charlie962 features 88 names (86 missing, 1 wounded and missing, 1 missing believe killed). There is solid evidence for 87 serving with the 1/4th Battalion – the exception I believe is a transcription error that will take some more digging I suspect to satisfy the CWGC to make a change.

Of those 88, (ignoring for the moment those who died as prisoners of war), 69 according to CWGC died on the 19th April 1917, while another is down as having died on the “9th” April 1917 which seems to be too much of a co-incidence to be anything other than a mis-transcription somewhere along the line.

The CWGC website shows 152 fatalities suffered by the 1/4th Battalion on the 19th April 1917, all either buried at the Gaza War Cemetery or remembered on the Jerusalem War Memorial. The 152 figure is split into 6 Officers and 146 other ranks.

But I could not find anymore Official Casualty Lists – although according to FindMyPast another 35 of the dead from the 19th April 1917 also appear on a casualty list. (I don’t subscribe, so needs checking out when I next get to the library).

While checking out the Royal Norfolk Regiment contributions to AMOT looking for the Battalion War Diary or any clue as to the volume of prisoners of war I did find an extract from an order of service that took place at Norfolk Cathedral on the 18th February 1918 to remember the officers, nco’s and other ranks of the Norfolk Regiment who had made the ultimate sacrifice. A look at the sample entry for the 4th Battalion shows names recorded as having gone missing on the 3rd May 1917, the 30th May 1917 and the 2nd June 1917.

 

OrderofServiceFebruary281918NorwichCathedralextractsourcedRoyalNorfolkMuseumviaAMOT.png.ecca37c7227eaf4908fd6459f19c4ff5.png

Image courtesy The Olgilby Muster and the Royal Norfolk Regiment Museum. https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/3063030

Of the names listed as missing on the 3rd May 1917, Aggas, Atherton, Bond, Barnard, Balls, Bedwell, Brown, (but not Bugden), E.A. Browne, Bird, Beaty, Bond (duplicate entry!), Brown, Boocock, Cursons, Child, Caines, Cockaday, Dunnett, Docking, Daynes, Dewing, Doggett and Dawson all appear in the OCL from The Times dated 11th June 1917 and either died on the 19th April 1917, were taken prisoner on the 19th April 1917 – or are Atherton, the man on CWGC as KiA on the 9th April 1917.

Of the names listed as missing on the 30th May 1917, Dix and Davis were both serving with the 7th Battalion when KiA on the 28th April 1917. (Both are on the Arras Memorial).

And of those listed as missing on the 2nd June 1917, Abbott, Bird don’t appear to have been notified.
Burke, Carey, Chilvers, Davidson, Dack and Dresh are on a casualty list from the British Red Cross on FMP

I checked a few of the names and those dates are also indexed on Ancestry in connection with their entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects.

So timewise I believe we are getting to the gap where Other Ranks & NCO’s in the Official Casualty Lists stopped being included in The Times, and before the new War Office weekly publication commenced in early August 1917. If the Other Ranks OCL’s for the 1/4th and 1/5th Battalions disappeared into that gap then the best that can be hoped for is that there is a subsequent confirmation that a soldier was now a prisoner in the hands of the Turks and \ or a repatriation record, plus whatever the ICRC can throw up.

Next up are the men of the 1/4th Battalion who I believe were taken prisoner on the 19th April 1917.

Cheers,
Peter

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2 hours ago, PRC said:

But I could not find anymore Official Casualty Lists –

Try the Missing listed in the Times 18/6/17.

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3 hours ago, PRC said:

Atherton, the man on CWGC as KiA on the 9th April 1917.

? He came up on 19/4/17 cwgc search. He is on the missing list Times 18/6/17. (Edit - this last is Edward Atherton 242456, 1/5th so not same man)

Cash 241064 1/5th died 19/4/17 was finally reported as "prev missing now killed" in Daily Cas List 6/11/17.

Edited by charlie962
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50 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Try the Missing listed in the Times 18/6/17.

I've been looking for the known names for the 1/4th Battalion, but there's always another search that can be done :)

18 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

? He came up on 19/4/17 cwgc search. He is on the missing list Times 18/6/17.

Thats the Atherton who was serving with the 1/5th Battalion. The 1/4th Battalion man 200673 Private Stanley William Atherton currently has this information on his CWGC webpage.

StanleyWilliamAthertonCWGCwebpageat1405232120.png.a59669e3669fa9f4ae94e4d9b76c2fab.png

It's been like that for some time as here's the entry from the panel register.

StanleyWilliamAthertonCWGCmemorialregister140523.jpg.419f6286d14a68020bb204fc6e8f20a5.jpg

Both images courtesy of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

I've been concentrating on the 4th Battalion to try and gauge how much of a time hoover doing a similar exercise for the 5th Battalion would be - and the answer has to be a lot. Even with the 4th Battalion it's chucked up so many corrections requests to the likes of the National Archive and Ancestry - if I thought it would do any good I'd send them to FindMyPast as well. And that's just to QA the data when you have anomalies on what seems like every other record.

At this point for me the most cost effective use of my time would be to carry on building the regimental database, as a simple output of that would be to produce a list of the men captured on any particular day, rather than focusing on a day and trying to work out who was captured on it as a separate project. But it may be that once I put up a list of the prisoners of the 4th Battalion that I'm aware of, and if it proves possible to knock it into shape so it seems 100% complete, then it may be that a quick and dirty way to do something similar with the 5th Battalion will present itself.

Cheers,
Peter

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Peter, I'm sorry I drifted into 1/5th men! This sort of detailed listing is beyond me on a phone. Happy to search for selected names though if it helps.

Charlie

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Not all the missing had died. Where reports were received by the ICRC from the Turkish Red Crescent it is the pre 1917 TF service number that is quoted – another mis-match with the information contained in the Official Casualty Lists. However not even the British Army records offices were immune – one of the 88 in the 11th June 1917 OCL (W. Rudman) is still referred to by his old four digit service number of 8818 rather than his new six digit service number 203315.

For the prisoners sourced from the OCL that appeared in The Times dated 11th June 1917, none appear to have service records. Unfortunately most are simply recorded as captured at Gaza, holding out the possibility this was 1st Gaza rather than 2nd Gaza.

1.     202871 / 8373 James Batty was captured “at Gaza” wounded in both legs. He was initially treated in the hospital at Nazareth. (ICRC report R.50907 as James “Betty”) and was subsquently moved to Psamatia. (ICRC Report R.50927 as James “Betty”). No repatriation report found on the ICRC website. War Office Weekly number 70 daily list 28th November 1918 page 25 Prisoners of War in Turkey who have been released includes 202871 J. Batty. Discharged 17th April 1919 as no longer physically fit for War Service (Wounds).

2.     200807 / 3695 Ronald Stanley Bird was captured “at Gaza” ‘Plaie par arme a feu audessus du genou gauche avec fracture” which google translate renders as ‘Gunshot wound above left knee with fracture.’ Originally treated at Nazareth, he had been moved on to the hospital at Damascus in a report prepared on the 15th August 1917. (ICRC Report R.50852). He appears on ICRC Report R. 50946 which as received by the Swiss on the 25th November 1917 as one of a number of prisoners the Turks were looking to repatriate.It confirms he was captured on the 19th April 1917. He died on the 18th December 1917 of dysentery, (CWGC grave register) and was buried at the Haidar Pasha Cemetery, Istanbul. Register of Soldiers Effects shows “Hos. Haidar Pasha”.:poppy:

3.     200084 / 1597 Arthur George Caines arrived in London on the 27th November 1918 and was admitted to King George Hospital. A repatriated prisoner, his condition was given as amputated left leg. (ICRC report R.52799).  He was regarded as severely wounded. (ICRC report R.52911). Discharged 13th December 1919 as no longer physically fit for War Service (Wounds).

4.     200850 / 3996 Robert Curtis, captured at Gaza on the 19th April 1917, was in hospital at Maltepe according to a list from the Ottoman Red Crescent dated 5th January 1918 that was forwarded to the Geneva Red Cross (ICRC Report R.50984 as Robert H. Curtis). The same information appears on a retyped extract of information said to be on a report either dated 18th January 1918 or received 18th January 1918, it is not clear. (ICRC Report R.51094 as R.H. Curtis). Weekly List No .2 Previously reported wounded and missing, now reported Prisoners of War in Turkish hands, Daily List 10th August 1917 page 27 has 200850 R.Curtis (Norwich). He arrived at Southampton as a repatriated prisoner of war from Turkey and was sent by Ambulance Train to London on the 27th November 1918. His condition was recorded as Gun Shot Wound to the Spine. (ICRC Report R.52565 as R.H.S. Curtis). Repatriated prisoner admitted King George Hospital, Ford Street London 27/11/1918 Severely wounded. (ICRC Report R.52911 as R.H.S Curtis). Discharged 6th February 1919 as no longer physically fit for War Service (Wounds).

5.     201364 J.H Davis – probably the soldier who the MiC and Medal Rolls shows as 5731 / 10500 Joseph Harold Davis. (NB for the 4th Battalion soldiers 5713 was renumbered 201348, 5718 was renumbered 201353, 5733 was renumbered 201366, 5743 was renumbered 201375). Two ICRC cards, one as 5731 Joseph H. Davis and one as 5731 Joseph Harold Davis. Home address given as Leek. Both refer to ICRC report R. 50801, dated 15th July 1917. Captured at Gaza (undated) and was at the Damascus Hospital.  Nothing on MiC. No obvious ICRC reports covering repatriation. War Office weekly list No.73, on the daily list list for December 17th 1918 (page 13), 201364 J. H Davis (Leek) is recorded as a released Turkish Prisoner of War.

6.     200695 / 3384 James Forster. Repatriated Prisoner of War  in UK from Turkey, admitted King George Hospital 27/11/18 GSW Foot R (ICRC Report R.52799). ICRC Report R.52911 classifies him as slightly wounded. Discharged medically unfit 20/03/1919.

7.     200994 / 4664 (Reginald) Arthur Hales. Only ICRC documentation records him as Reginald. Captured Gaza and initially treated at the Nazareth Hospital. (ICRC Report R.50800). Weekly List No .2 Previously reported wounded and missing, now reported Prisoners of War in Turkish hands, Daily List 10th August 1917 page 27. Died of enteritis and tuberculosis at the Hospital Tach-Kichla (ICRC Report R.50988). Died 15th November 1917 and buried Haidar Pasha Cemetery (CWGC).:poppy:

8.     200374 / 2493 George Charles Hannant, ‘A’ Company (CWGC). ICRC have a missing person enquiry from the summer of 1918 citing his 200374 s\n - response from the Red Crescent is that he is not on their lists. Nowich Mercury Saturday 15th February 1919, local war news for Norwich.  Death at Nazareth. Information has been received by Mrs. Hannant, 290, King Street, late of 21, The Walk, that her youngest son, Lance-Corporal George Hannant, of the 1/4th Norfolk Regiment, who was wounded and taken prisoner of war by the Turks at Gaza, died in the 18th Stationary Hospital, Nazareth on the 25th May 1917. Died a PoW at Haifa, 25/05/1917 (CWGC).:poppy:

9.     203453 / 4751 Arthur Howes. Captured at Gaza. Taken from Hospital at Nazareth to place unknown (ICRC report R.50800). No obvious repatriation record in the Weekly Casualty List or on the ICRC website. Medically discharged 14/07/1919 wounds.

10.  200182 / 2009 Frederick Manthorpe. War Office weekly list No.75, on the daily list list for January 2nd 1919, (page 26), 200182 F. Manthorpe (Diss) is recorded as a released Turkish Prisoner of War. MiC shows him as discharged and in receipt of the Silver War Badge, but couldn’t find the relevant page of the SWB when there was free access over the Coronation weekend. No obvious ICRC records.

11.  200379 / 2503 Frank Frederick Marshall. Captured Gaza and initially treated at the Nazareth Hospital. (ICRC Report R.50800). Weekly List No.2 Previously reported wounded and missing, now reported Prisoners of War in Turkish hands, Daily List 10th August 1917 page 27 has 200379 F.F. Marshall. Died a Prisoner of War of the Turks at Konia 11/10/1917. Buried Konia Cemetery and moved to Baghdad (North Gate) War Cemetery. (CWGC):poppy:

12.  201158 / 5051 Arthur Thomas Parker. ICRC report R50801 initially treated in hospital at Damascus. ICRC report R52565 has him landed Southampton and conveyed by Ambulance Train to London 27/11/18 condition shown as amputated right leg. Admitted King George Hospital the same day. (ICRC Report R.5277 but service number shown as 204158). Medically discharged 20/12/1919 AO 29 of 1919, Wounds.

13.  201171 / 5087 Morris Francis Pitcher. According to FMP there is a card under 5087 M. Pitchers but I couldn't find it on the ICRC website. Nothing obvious in the War Office weekly list. MiC for Morris Francis Pitcher has no indication of discharge.

14.  200956 / ?4572? John J. Rudling. MiC for a 4572 John J. Rudling subsequently 64560 Lincolnshire Regiment. No CWGC entry.3 x ICRC cards for a John Rudling 4572. Two are shown as 1/5th Norfolks, although a later amendment on one adds he was 1/4th. The third card is 1/4th Norfolks. Captured Gaza and initially treated at the Nazareth Hospital. He was from Lincoln. (ICRC Report R.50800, 1/5th Battalion).  In a report dated 5th September 1917 it is recorded that a John “Rudlane”,  1/4th Norfolks, from “Lingin”, who had been captured at Gaza on the “27th” April 1917 had been moved to Psamatia. (ICRC Report R. 50854 Bis.)

15.  201415 / either 5704 or 5794, Harry Sinfield. ICRC report R50801 initially treated in hospital at Damascus. Repatriated from Turkey, arrived Southampton and moved to London via Ambulance Train, 27th November 1918. He is stated to be suffering from paralysis. (ICRC Report R.52565). Admitted King George Hospital. (ICRC Report R.52799). Medically discharged 31/12/1918, Wounds.

16.  200497 / 2795 Charles Woodrow. Weekly List No .2 Previously reported wounded and missing, now reported Prisoners of War in Turkish hands, Daily List 10th August 1917 (page 27) includes 200497 C.Woodrow, (Norwich). War Office weekly list No.75, on the daily list for January 2nd 1919, (page 26), 200497 C. Woodrow (Norwich) is recorded as a released Turkish Prisoner of War.

17.  203329 / 8832 Joseph Woodward. ICRC report R. 50852 dated 18th August 1917, captured at Gaza and had been moved from a hospital at Nazareth to a hospital at Damascus, his condition shown as “Plaie par shrapnel de l'avant bras et des deux cuisses”. (Goolge translates as “Shrapnel wound to the forearm and both thighs”). ICRC report R52799 has him arrived London 27/11/1918 and admitted King Georges Hospital. He had a shot wound, left leg ICRC report R.52911 wounded slight. Medically discharged 07/03/1919

18.  201124 / 4936 Charles William Yaxley. Taken at Gaza, in hospital Damascus, (ICRC report R.50801 dated 15/07/17).  Still in hospital at Damascus, being treated for “Plaie par arme a feu ambe, genou avec fracture” which Google translates as Ambe gunshot wound, knee with fracture”, (ICRC report R.50851, dated 15th August 1917). Next report is that he has been moved to the hospital at Psamatia, (ICRC report R. 50878 dated 5th October 1917). War Office Weekly no.71, daily list December 4th, (page 20), prisoners of war in Turkey who have been released includes Yaxley 201124 C.W, (Norwich). Nothing on MiC to indicate medical discharge.

19.  Not on the OCL in The Times, 11/06/17. ICRC Report R.50800 includes 3658 (/ 200789) Frederick Johns of 72 Morning Lane ‘Auckney’, London. Captured at Gaza and moved to the hospital at Nazareth. ICRC then note the card moved to a destination unknown. Second index card has been annotated with surname shown as “Jones?”. War Office Weekly no.71, daily list December 4th, (page 20), prisoners of war in Turkey who have been released includes Johns 200789 F, (Homerton Row, East London). Nothing on the MiC to indicate a medical discharge.

20.  Not on the OCL in The Times, 11/06/17. ICRC Report R.50800 includes 4323 (/200865) James Mann of 11, Goldwell Road, Hall Road, Lakenham, Norwich. Captured at Gaza and moved to the hospital at Nazareth. ICRC then note card moved to a destination unknown. Died at Nigde 18th October 1917, now buried at Baghdad (North Gate War Cemetery.):poppy:

21.  Not on the OCL in The Times, 11/06/17. ICRC Report R.50801 includes 4755 / (201063) Arthur Walker, of  24 Rosemary Lane, St Mary Plane, Norwich. Captured at Gaza and being treated in a hospital at Damascus. Weekly List No. 2 Previously reported wounded and missing, now reported Prisoners of War in Turkish hands, Daily List 10th August 1917 page 27 includes 201063 Lance Serjeant A.Walker. War Office Weekly number 70 daily list 28th November 1918 page 25 Prisoners of War in Turkey who have been released includes 201063 L\Sgt A. Walker,  (Norwich). FMP has something indexed as a Service record but I could not find anything comparable as either a Service or Pension record indexed on Ancestry. Nothing on the MiC to indicate a subsequent medical discharge.

22.  Not on the OCL in The Times, 11/06/17. ICRC Report R.50801 includes 2813 / (200508) Albert Walter Bird, of 158 Knowsley Road, Norwich. Captured at Gaza and being treated in a hospital at Damascus. ICRC Report R.50851 shows him still in hospital at Damascus being treated for “Plaie penetrante jambe gauche, fracture du tibia”, which according to Google translate means “Penetrating wound left leg, tibia fracture”. No obvious release record on ICRC nor could I find him in the weekly War Office Lists. Discharged 12th December 1918 and received the SWB.

23.  Not on the OCL in The Times, 11/06/17. ICRC Report R.50907 dated 15/10/1917 for prisoners at the hospital at Nazareth includes 3714 (/200815) Charles Dack, of Melton Constable, “Birmingham” , (actually in Norfolk), who was captured at Gaza with “Plaie par arme a feu de la machoire inferieure”. (Google translate “Gunshot wound to lower jaw”).  He was moved to Psamatia, (ICRC Report R.50927 dated 5/11/17. MiC as Charles K. Dack  Medal Roll as Charles Knights Dack. Discharged 9th April 1919 as no longer physically fit for war service and received SWB.

24.  Not on the OCL in The Times, 11/06/17. Weekly List No .2 Previously reported wounded and missing, now reported Prisoners of War in Turkish hands, Daily List 10th August 1917 page 27 has 202885 J.W. Martyn, (Banningham). The MiC for James T. Martyn \ Medal Roll for James Thomas Martyn have him previously with the Army Service Corps and don’t show a four digit Norfolk TF service number. There is an ICRC card for an 8387 James Thomas Martyn, 1/4th Norfolks, taken 19/4/17 at Gaza. The limited number of examples I’ve looked at in the past for near six digit numbers has left me with the same problem of not finding their earlier four digit number. The only one I have so far is James Batty, 202871 who was formerly 8373 – see prisoner number 1 above. James Martyn died at Wadi-Sarar, Palestine, on the 23rd May 1917, with condition shown as “Plaie penetrant par arme a feu de la poitrine”. (Google Translate “Penetrating gunshot wound to the chest”). The card adds that dysentery was a contributing factor.(ICRC report R.50819). His gave must subsequently have been lost as he is now commemorated on the Jerusalem Memorial. There is a concentration report that had him as buried at Ramleh, so presumably grave either not found or empty.:poppy:

25.  Not on the OCL in The Times, 11/06/17. Weekly List No .2 Previously reported wounded and missing, now reported Prisoners of War in Turkish hands, Daily List 10th August 1917 page 27 includes 200027 Serjeant W.A Wade (Wymondham). No obvious ICRC card. MiC shows he was 762 then 200027 William A. Wade \ Medal Roll as William Alan Wade. MiC records that he died of wounds 2nd February 1918. CWGC has him buried at Damascus. Has surviving service records indexed on FMP but couldn’t spot an obvious Service \ Pension record on Ancestry.:poppy:

This one turned out to be a red herring.

1.     Not on the OCL in The Times, 11/06/17. ICRC Report R.50852 includes 2560 Albert Edwin Whiffin, 1/4th Norfolks who was captured at Gaza, and whose home address was Church from Linton, Cambridge, who had been moved from the hospital at Nazareth to a hospital at Damascus and was being treated for “Plaie et fracture de la cuisse gauche”. (Google Translate “Wound and fracture of the left thigh”). However is MiC shows him as Albert E J renumbered to 240412, a 5th Battalion number and that he died 23rd July 1917. Weekly List No .2 Previously reported wounded and missing, now reported Prisoners of War in Turkish hands, Daily List 10th August 1917 page 27 includes 240412 A.E.J. ‘Whiffen’. CWGC has him as 1/5th Battalion and buried Damascus.

So far no unique source that can be counted on to do better than 75% - and that’s of course if I’ve got eveyone taken prisoner from the 4th Battalion. Summary – 25 prisoners, 7 died in captivity.

Cheers,
Peter

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24 minutes ago, PRC said:

1. 202871 / 8373 James Batty was captured “at Gaza”

The BRC/StJohns enquiry says 4th Norfolk's missing 19/4/17.

28 minutes ago, PRC said:

2.     200807 / 3695 Ronald Stanley Bird was captured “at Gaza”

BRC/StJohns Enquiry says 4th Norfolk's, missing 19/4/17

 

32 minutes ago, PRC said:

3.     200084 / 1597 Arthur George Caines

BRC/StJohns enquiry says 4th Norfolk's missing 19/4/17.

 

I've just taken the first three names. These BRC/StJohns enquiries are transcribed on FindmyPast 

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This scrap of paper typically indexed by Findmypast lists men who are mention by Peter above and a test check shows that they have BRC/StJohns Enquiries showing them 4th Norfolks missing 19/4/17.

GBM_WO363-4_007280417_00710.jpg.af5495d766f21f47439bd2d169a815a9.jpg

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51 minutes ago, PRC said:

14.  200956 / ?4572? John J. Rudling.

BRC/StJohns Enquiry shows 200956 4th Norfolk missing 19/4/17.

Edited by charlie962
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Pete and Charlie,

Well done

Cheers
S.B

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@PRC

Next time you get access to Findmypast and try the following search you will get 337 results for the Norfolks missing 19/4/17. Battalions include 4th and 5th. I'm not clever enough to refine further.

Forgive me if I'm teaching grandma but the search only seems to work on FindmyPast if I replace the / in the date with a ? when using optional keywords. Strange.

Screenshot_20230518-0840232.png.74ca5870661fc7c5e1c4146d3ed2343f.png

 

I hope it throws up something useful for you. Sorry to drown you with 300+ names to check.

Charlie

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