Baghdad North Gate Cemetery 1/4 Norfolk

[Ed Woods]

There are a about 50 Essex Regiment soldiers buried in Baghdad and 170 Norfolk Regiment and most I believe were captured at Gaza.

They were part of the

54th (East Anglian) Division that included;-

_{161st (Essex) Brigade}

• 1/4th Battalion, The Essex Regiment
  
• 1/5th Battalion, The Essex Regiment
  
• 1/6th Battalion, The Essex Regiment
  
• 1/7th Battalion, The Essex Regiment
  

162nd (East Midland) Brigade

• 1/5th Battalion, The Bedfordshire Regiment
  
• 1/4th Battalion, The Northamptonshire Regiment
  
• 1/10th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment
  
• 1/11th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment
  

163rd (Norfolk and Suffolk) Brigade

• 1/4th Battalion, The Norfolk Regiment
  
• 1/5th Battalion, The Norfolk Regiment
  
• 1/5th Battalion, The Suffolk Regiment
  
• 1/8th (Princess Beatrice's Isle of Wight Rifles) Battalion, The Hampshire Regiment
  

The book - With the 1/5th Essex in the East lists their dead and wounded - although not a complete list.

There are a number listed as died as died as prisoner including:-

250509 -Pte J Clayton - 18 Dec 1917 - .BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) WAR CEMETERY XXI. U. 26. He would have been captured at Gaza.

Most of those listed as 'died as prisoners' have no known grave and are listed on the Jerusalem memorial

The Baghdad North Gate cemetery contains 2,729 unidentified burials so in all probability many of these prisoners final resting place is Baghdad.

​The two Norfolk Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment suffered 75% casualties - dead, wounded, missing and prisoners at the 2nd Battle of Gaza.

​Does anybody have any figures on the number of pows captured by the Turks and the mortality rate?

[T8HANTS]

I have a list of 64 POW's from the 8th Hants, 57 of whom were captured at 2nd Gaza. Of that 64, 20 subsiquently died. Of that 20, ten were in a camp or district called Yarbaschi, and five died at Nazareth. This list was complied from the Hampshire Regiment POW relief fund, and soldiers died, it is probably not comprehensive.

Gareth

[ddycher]

I would like to bring this back up. Anyone know where POW's taken between Gaza 3 and Jerusalem were taken ?

Regards

Dave

[Kitty55]

Hi Gareth

If you're still looking I can add you to my list which I hold for those searching for info on anything to do with the 5th Battalion as it was based in Dereham where I'm the local historian. I've got copies of all the Dereham and Fakenham Times during the war period and there might be something mentioned in there. I can't look at present as I'm in the middle of doing research for my last lot of talks this year but will keep an eye open as the saying goes for the name and anything on Baghdad/Gallipoli concerning POW's etc. It's amazing what I've found in the papers.

Incidently the Essex, Bedfordshire and London Yeomanry were all stationed in Dereham at some point during the War - along with many others.

Also by any chance is he related to the family of Briggs who were shoe shop owners in town at the time and until recently? as I know some of them.

thanks and take care, Kitty

[Darren Evans]

I managed to get 13 general photos of Baghdad North Gate a couple of years back. One attached.

[ianshuter]

I read this thread today whilst researching Private 203312 Oliver Samuel Wickham of Burton Dassett, Warwickshire where he is named on the War Memorial. Oliver is buried at Baghdad North Gate Cemetery.

He was a member of 1st/4th Norfolks and his Register of Effects state that his death was officially accepted as being on 1 Oct 1917 at the Labour camp at Yarbashci in Turkey. Men there were forced to work on the construction of Berlin-Baghdad Railway and it occurred to me that after he died he body was sent into British hands by sending it via rail to Baghdad.

[charlie962]

34 minutes ago, ianshuter said:

and it occurred to me that after he died he body was sent into British hands by sending it via rail to Baghdad

After the war, by the time the Imperial War Graves Commission came to exhume the graves at Yarbashi for reburial at Baghdad, the railway still hadn't connected all the way to Baghdad? Quite possible the bodies were conveyed on the railway through the Amanus mountains and on towards Mosul on the railway the POWs helped build. 

Edit. I think the Nisibin, Mosul, Kirkuk stretch was not complete at the end of the war.

Edited 15 April , 2023 by charlie962

[PRC]

2 hours ago, ianshuter said:

He was a member of 1st/4th Norfolks and his Register of Effects state that his death was officially accepted as being on 1 Oct 1917 at the Labour camp at Yarbashci in Turkey.

I take you have his enquiry card at the International Committee of the Red Cross? Unfortunately not much detail although wifes address is then given as Northend, near Leamington. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2806537/3/2/

I’ve tentatively got him down as captured at 2nd Gaza, and he was part of a draft. I don’t have any near numbers who died before the 19th April 1917, but of course that could have been down to luck and lack of combat.  Among the near numbers who died on that date are:-

203305 William Henry Jenkins. Son of William Henry and Sarah Ann Jenkins, of Hawthorn Cottage, 3, Back 26, Cromwell St., Birmingham. FMP have a British Red Cross Wounded & Missing entry for him.

203308 Thomas Matthews. Son of Mr. and Mrs, Matthews, of 88, New St., Leamington Spa; husband of Daisy Annie Letts (formerly Matthews), of 106, Lower Tachbrook St., Leamington Spa, Warwickshire. FMP have a British Red Cross Wounded & Missing entry for him.

203313 Thomas Harvey. Son of Thomas and Sarah Harvey, of Birdingbury; husband of Mary Jane Harvey, of Birdingbury, Rugby. FMP have a British Red Cross Wounded & Missing entry for him. MiC shows previously 8816 Norfolk Regiment.

203315 William Rudman. SDGW born Barking, Essex, enlisted Birmingham, shows him with the 1/4th, whereas CWGC has him with the 1/5th on the webpage but 1/4th on the grave register. Surviving service record.

203318 Harry Harris, Son of Henry Harris, late of Long St., Sparkbrook; husband of Gertrude Isabel Harris, of 2/22, Long St., Sparkbrook, Birmingham. FMP have a British Red Cross Wounded & Missing entry for him. MiC shows previously 8821 Norfolk Regiment.

203333 Frederick L Law. Son of Leonard and Elizabeth Law, of 19, Lozells St., Lozells, Birmingham. FMP have a British Red Cross Wounded & Missing entry for him under Fred Law and another under T. Law.

203335 Alfred Rock. SDGW born King’s Bramley, Staffordshire, enlisted Coventry. FMP have a British Red Cross Wounded & Missing entry for him.

Not really a draft I’ve done much work on as yet, but hopefully something in there that might help.

One of those queries at the back of my mind was whether at Baghdad the concentration work was done by the Army, with the Imperial War Graves Commission then subsequently taking over management. Hence the difference in paperwork from the Concentration Reports we are more familiar with for France & Flanders.

Cheers,
Peter

[ianshuter]

I didn't have the Red Cross card I will search for it thank you.
I had already researched 203313 Thomas Harvey as he is named on the Birdingbury War Memorial - I think I need to get the Red X record although he is recorded as buried at Gaza.
https://www.swfhs.org.uk/index.php/war-memorial-transcriptions/war-memorial-transcritions-a-d/birdingbury-wm/16-the-men-who-fell-in-ww1/1687-pvt-tharvey

I also have 203324 Bernard Walton 1/4th he died of dysentery on Monday May 14th, 1917 and is buried at Alexandria (Hadra) War Cemetery. He is named on the Stratford on Avon war memorials - here is his temporary page https://www.swfhs.org.uk/index.php/war-memorial-transcriptions/new-master-index-of-the-fallen-of-ww1/1331

I have not got round to photographing and transcribing Leamington Spa memorials yet (except some villages and Lillington) but I will no doubt need the details of 203308 Thomas Matthews

If you have any info on men from South Warwickshire (south of the M6 except Birmingham and central Coventry) I would be grateful to receive it - we are just about to enter our 2000th man into the database after another round of photographing memorials.

Edited 15 April , 2023 by ianshuter

[ianshuter]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

After the war, by the time the Imperial War Graves Commission came to exhume the graves at Yarbashi for reburial at Baghdad, the railway still hadn't connected all the way to Baghdad? Quite possible the bodies were conveyed on the railway through the Amanus mountains and on towards Mosul on the railway the POWs helped build. 

Edit. I think the Nisibin, Mosul, Kirkuk stretch was not complete at the end of the war.

thank you, I will update his page

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I wrote something on the units at 2nd Gaza some time ago dealing with the Camel Corps at that time figures on those prisoners still were not that firm

I'am place what I ended up with if you can correct them great.

A comparison between the two British Infantry Battalions involved directly in the assault on Tank Redoubt show they lost the following casualties;

 

The 1/5^th Norfolk’s (TF) Battalion lost seven officers (Lieutenant Colonel Grissell, Captain’s Beck MC, Birbeck, Cubitt, Lieutenant’s Gardiner, Plaistowe and Tebbutt) and 199 men killed in action with one officer (Lieutenant Hervey) and 17 men died from wounds while eight officers and 401 men were wounded and four officers and 229 men were reported as missing possibly all amoung the many dead with few as prisoners.

 

The 1/8^th Hampshire (Princess Beatrice’s) Battalion had a battalion strength of 23 officers and 746 men and lost eight officers (Captain’s Pittis MC, Seely, Lieutenant’s Attfield, Hills, King, Pakeman, Ratsey, and Shelton) and 177 men killed in action with 11 men died from wounds, while 15 officers and 298 men were wounded and four officers (Lt’s Atkin, Cox, Blofeld and Roberts) and 28 men were taken prisoner of which one officer (Lieutenant Blofeld) died from wounds while in captivity.

[PRC]

11 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

The 1/5^th Norfolk’s (TF) Battalion lost seven officers (Lieutenant Colonel Grissell, Captain’s Beck MC, Birbeck, Cubitt, Lieutenant’s Gardiner, Plaistowe and Tebbutt) and 199 men killed in action with one officer (Lieutenant Hervey) and 17 men died from wounds while eight officers and 401 men were wounded and four officers and 229 men were reported as missing possibly all amoung the many dead with few as prisoners.

Steve,

I’m sure you’re aware but there is a summary of the casualties that appears in at the end of the pages on the battle, (144-148) in “The History of the Norfolk Regiment 1685 – 1918”, Volume 2, by F. Loraine Petre,  which records:-

1/5^th Norfolks

Killed…….6 Officers  (Captains A.E. Beck, G.W. Birkbeck, E.H. Cubitt; Lieutenants E.J. Gardiner, R.R. Plaistowe;  Lieutenant-Colonel Grissell.) and 13 other ranks.
Wounded….9 Officers and 401 other ranks.
Missing……4 Officers and 229 other ranks.

Totals…….19 Officers and 643 other ranks.

As far as I can tell that can’t have been lifted straight from the War Diary, and so some degree of reconciliation must have taken place.

So for example the first reports for the fate of Captain and Adjutant Eustace Cubitt in the local Norfolk press records him as “Wounded and Missing” (Norwich Mercury 2^nd May 1917). This was updated three weeks later to officially "Killed in Action". (Norwich Mercury 26^th May 1917).

Similarly when reports appear in the local Norfolk press that Captain Gervaise William Birkbeck was officially reported "Killed in Action" it is noted that his status was previously “Wounded and Missing” (Eastern Daily Press 18^th September 1917, Norfolk Chronicle 21^st September 1917, Norwich Mercury 22^nd September 1917).

Meanwhile the wife of Lieutenant Colonel Bernard Grissell was placing an advert in the personal columns of the The Times on the 29^th May 1917 asking for any news about her husband who had been posted wounded and missing. The following day an official casualty list that appeared in The Times updated the status of Beck, Birkbeck and Plaistowe, along with Lieutenant Thurgar of the 1/4^th Battalion. They had been previously reported wounded but now they were wounded and missing. Problem is that so far I’ve not found an earlier list showing them as wounded, and so no intimation of the other officers recorded as missing \ wounded.

F. Loraine Petre draws on a report from a Lieutenant Buxton who had been sent forward from Brigade Headquarters to report on the situation, the lay of the land hampering direct observation and signalling.

“It is quite obvious what had happened. The advance had been held up just below the Turkish line, and one could see our men lying out in lines, killed or wounded. The 1/5^th Norfolk ‘B’ company under Captain Blyth, had captured Tank redoubt and had held it for some time, till all ammunition was spent. No support came up, and so those who did not get away, sixty in all, were captured in the Turkish counter-attack.”

Captain Blyth should be Arthur Cecil Blyth. He’s one of many I have to investigate further as I don’t seem to have him on a casualty list, there is no card for him at the International Committee of the Red Cross, he appears to have survived the war, (at least as far as CWGC is concerned), and so far have not come across a subsequent reference to him, (although I don’t have access to the War Diary, nor do I have access to F. Loraine Petre’s book other than in the county archive). However the highest rank in a Theatre of War shown for him on his MiC is Captain. Given the vacancies and the success of his initial attack you would have thought a promotion would have been a possibility if he remained with them after 2^nd Gaza.

11 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

Tebbutt

I assume this is Lieutenant Arthur Brookes Tebbutt who was serving with the 163^rd Company, Machine Gun Corps. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/651480/arthur-brookes-tebbutt/

MiC, Medal Rolls and the the NA catalogue entry for his officers long papers show him as a Lieutenant with the Norfolk Regiment, so I can only assume for now that he was attached to the M.G.C. rather than transferred.

He was an ex-Northamptonshire Yeomany Sergeant, and the additional family information on CWGC is “Son of Albert Edward and Kate Julia Tebbutt, of 9, St. Matthews Parade, Northampton.” That probably explains why I’m not picking up any reference to him in the Norfolk newspapers that I’ve transcribed so far.

As this thread is meant to be about the 1/4^th Battalion, just to bring it back on track here is the equivalent information from F. Loraine Petre for that Battalion.

1/4^th Norfolks

Killed…….6 Officers (Major W.H.T. Jewson; Captains W.V. Morgan, S.D. Page, R.W. Thurgar; Lieutenant F.J. Cole; Second Lieutenant J. Levy.) and 49 other ranks.
Wounded….11 Officers and 312 other ranks.
Missing……1 Officer and 99 other ranks.

Totals…….18 Officers and 460 other ranks.

Cheers,
Peter

[stevenbecker]

Peter,

Yes your right, one of the sources, I believe was you many years ago, and from the unit history.

Still no idea on how many were taken prisoners, and when Gareth wrote

"I have a list of 64 POW's from the 8th Hants, 57 of whom were captured at 2nd Gaza. Of that 64, 20 subsiquently died"

I thought there may have been some rechecking to confirm PoW's of the British Bn's involved here?

Cheers

S.B

 

[PRC]

22 minutes ago, stevenbecker said:

I thought there may have been some rechecking to confirm PoW's of the British Bn's involved here?

Given the gaps in the British records and the way the information was presented from the Turkish side that would be one heck of a reconciliation.

For example I did try looking to see if at least 1 of the 4 missing officers of the 1/5th Norfolks could be found, in the hope that scrolling through nearby pages might produce the others - a search of CWGC for 5th Battalion Officers who died on the 19th April 1917 only brought up the six already known about. So in theory the missing 4 either subsequently rejoined the unit, were found in the medical evacuation chain, or were prisoners.

To try and come up with some possible names, and in the absence of a complete casualty list, I tried working out the officer establishment of the 1/5th Battalion as shown in the British Army Monthly List for April 1917. That gave me 24 officers who were stated to be serving with the Battalion. The Official Regimental said only one came out unwounded so add in the 19 either killed wounded or missing that seems like we have too many.

But a closer check gave me three officers who were actually serving with the 1st Battalion in France & Flanders, one who died at Anafarta on the 12th August 1915 and another captured the same day and one who'd died of wounds at 1st Gaza. Lieutenant Buxton was meanwhile serving with the Brigade HQ, presumably leaving only the Quartermaster as the surviving Officer.

The other officer you've mentioned, Lieutenant Hervey is in the April 1917 list serving with the 3/5ths - a unit which by this stage did not physically exist.

But a deeper dive turns out no ICRC records for any of the names, and so far I've come across nothing in the local press. I know when I've looked for prisoners of the Turks thats sometimes the first time a man will get a mention on the official British casualty lists is to say that they have been repatriated. And of course what I don't know is if the missing 4 officers  were attached to the 1/5th Norfolks from another Regiment and it is under that Regiment their deaths are recorded.

As to the other ranks numbers taken prisoner my hope is that one day the Norfolk Regimental Museum will finally complete their long promised scanning of the regimental casualty book for the Great War period and put it online somewhere like the Ogilby Muster. In the meanwhile I'll continue plodding along and may eventually by combining various sources be able to produce a list of men taken prisoner, but that will be a byproduct rather than something I'd be looking to do as a specific project.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

There's a block of Norfolks reported missing in The Times 11/6/17 with report date 28/5/17. They have numbers looking like the 1/4th and 1/5th men. Sorry this extract not good quality:

Add Hewitt 200217 Wounded and missing.

Add Lee 201407 missing believed killed.

All on same page of the Times

Edited 16 April , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Just taking one example from that List, Harry Sinfield 201415 has a BRC enquiry showing him 1/4th, missing 19/4/17. 

His ICRC card is here. (Edit- note it is under the Main File and not the usual subsection for Gallipoli etc)

Perhaps repatriation lists but there will be others on same lists.

Edit, just adding Sinfield's other card which Leeds to some useful backing sheets.

Edited 17 April , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Here's a bit of R52565 on which Sinfield appears.

Courtesy ICRC

[stevenbecker]

Peter,

How you scared me.

So the details are not all correct

So Hervey did not died of wounds, who did if anyone?

Then again who or who were the four officers said to captured?

Clearly that also maybe incorrect?

Surely those MIA officers should be confirmed as PoW's or dead?

Sorry if we digress from the 1/4 Norfolk, as they like the 5Bn seam to be in the air and need more found

Thanks to people like you and others, we may find to answers some day.

S.B

 

 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, stevenbecker said:

So the details are not all correct

More like the details are not consistant! Lieutenant Douglas Frederick Hervey did die from his wounds on the 17th May 1917 and is buried at Cairo.
CWGC has him serving with the 1/5th Battalion.
MIC and Medal Rolls were silent as to Battalion.
May be more on his Register of Soldiers Effects entry - not seen.
April 1917 Monthly Army List has him with the 3/5th Battalion - a UK only unit that by then was nothing more than an adminstrative title.
His entry in the 1917 UK Probate Calendar shows him serving with the "5th" Battalion and having died at Cairo.
Local press reports in early May 1917 have him serving with the "5th" Battalion and wounded in the "recent big battle".
It's not really practical to go running off to Kew to see what it says in his surviving service records.

Obviously gut feel is that he was with the 1/5th at 2nd Gaza and that was where he was wounded, but the inconsistant information makes it difficult to be certain about which sources to rely on.

However the cogs whirred slowly but gets there in the end. The 1/5th and 1/4th Battalion Officers I looked at were either buried in Gaza War Cemetery or remembered on the Jerusalem Memorial. And the information from the Norfolk Regimental History was that 4 Officers of the 1/5th Battalion were missing and 1 Officer of the 1/4th Battalion - so five in total to account for.

Part of the problem with Hervey was that one of the sources puts him in a UK only unit and some of the others aren't precise enough to rule that out. So I got to thinking what if there were other officers who died on the 19th April 1917 showing up buried in either Gaza or remembered on the Jerusalem War Memorial who belong to units that were UK only, or who were serving in a Theatre of War, just not the Middle East. Turns out there were quite a few, but fortunately for me most either had a secondary regiment listed, or the unit served with was shown in the additional information. Which left me with these 5 individuals.

Gaza War Cemetery

Second Lieutenant Christopher James Alladyce Buckell, 3rd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/649592/christopher-james-allardyce-buckell/
1918 Probate Calendar just shows him serving with the Norfolk Regiment.

Second Lieutenant Wilfred Gordon Aron Joseph, 1st Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment, attached 1/5th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/650462/wilfrid-gordon-aron-joseph/

Jerusalem War Memorial.

Second Lieutenant Reginald Cuthbert Chilvers, 10th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1644688/reginald-cuthbert-chilvers/
1917 Probate Calendar shows him serving with the 10th Battalion.

Second Lieutenant Robert Charles Middleton Harper, General List (New Armies), attached 1/5th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1645494/robert-charles-middleton-harper/

Second Lieutenant Alec James Porter, 1st Battalion, Norfolk Regiment. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1646708/alec-james-porter/

Still more work needs doing but could be that those unnamed missing officers did not fall into the hands of the Turks.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 17 April , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[Gunner 87]

44 minutes ago, PRC said:

May be more on his Register of Soldiers Effects entry - not seen.

Nothing extra on the Register of Soldiers' Effects

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

So Hervey did not died of wounds, who did if anyone

Lieutenant. D.F. Hervey

Name: Hervey, D.F.

Rank: Lieutenant.

Ship / Unit: Norfolk Regiment (T.F.).

Date of Death: 17th May,1917

Enrollment: 1914

War: The Great War

Type: War List

 

Profile: D.F. HERVEY Died 17 May 1917 of wounds received in action 19 April 1917.

Source: Cambridge University War List 1914-1918

±++++++++++++++++++++ 

Name: Hervey, Douglas Frederick

Rank: Lieutenant

Ship / Unit: 5th (Territorial) Battalion the Norfolk Regiment

Date of Death: 17th, May 1917

War: The Great War

Type: Roll of Honour

 

Profile: DOUGLAS FREDERICK HERVEY elder s. of Matthew Wilson Hervey, of East Bilney Hall, East Dereham, Norfolk. J.P., by his wife, Ada Marian, only dau. of Frederick Holkham Dangar ; b. Hammersmith, London, W., 3 July, 1896 ; educ. Suffield Park School, Cromer ; also at Harrow, where he was a member of the O.T.C., and Pembroke College, Cambridge, where he was also in the University O.T.C. ; obtained a commission in Dec. 1914 ; served with his battalion in Gallipoli from Sept. 1915 ; was invalided home wit b enteric fever : on his recovery served with the Egypt tan Expeditionary Force from Jan. 1917 ; was wounded at Gaza 19 April, and died at Nasrieh School Hospital, Cairo, 17 May, 1917. Buried in the British Military Cemetery, Cairo ; unmarried.

Source: De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour 1914-1918 

(There is also a photo).  

 

++++++++++++++++++ 

 

 

Harrow Memorials of the great War.

 

All above courtesy The Genealogist 

Edited 17 April , 2023 by charlie962

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Your the best

S.B

[PRC]

@Gunner 87 and @charlie962

Thank you both. I guess a working life spent manipulating data has made me even more cautious, so I'm used to working with either absolutes or qualifying with a degree of confidence. For me I'd go with a 95% level of confidence that Douglas Frederick Hervey was serving with the 1/5th Battalion when he incurred what would prove to be his fatal wounds at 2nd Gaza.

We know he was on the officer establishment of a 5th Battalion - I think the 3/5th Battalion shown in the April 1917 British Army Monthly List was correct at some stage in his military career.
And the tendency when writing home for officers and men serving in the 1/5th Battalion to refer to themselves as just the 5th Battalion at this stage of the war, (at least as evidenced by what was published in the local press) to my mind makes it more likely that is how his Battalion would appear in information provided by family or his old school if he was in contact with them.
But playing devils' advocate, the CWGC database is a less than perfect source - witness the 3rd Battalion and 10th Battalion Norfolk Regiment men who would appear to have died at 2nd Gaza.
And it seems that a significant number of officers who went out to Egypt as replacements in 1916 were attached elsewhere. Just as we don't know which Battalion the 3rd and 10th men served with, I would suggest we can't be entirely confident that Lieutenant Hervey was serving with either the 1/4th or 1/5th Norfolks rather than any other battalion \ unit serving with either the East Anglian or Lowland Scots Divisions. We already have the example of Lieutenant Tebbutt - CWGC have him with the MGC while other sources have him as 1/5th Norfolk Regiment.
We all know there is no "5th Norfolk Regiment" - it's just a common shorthand way of writing 5th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment. But when an individual is stated to have "rejoined" his regiment as the Harrow Memorial entry does, can it be presumed that the same shorthand meaning of Regiment applies? Taken literally it could equally apply if he joined the 1/4th, another battalion of his Regiment.

So for me 95% confidence and a lot of gut feeling to bridge the confidence gap that the right Battalion has been identified - others may look at the same evidence and be more, (or less) convinced.

And the man himself, from the edition of The Illustrated London News, September 1st 1917, courtesy of the now defunct website to commemorate the Great War that was put up by the newspaper title owner.

There are going to be sources out there that will up the level of certainty, not least the contents of his officers long papers. There may well be more to uncover in the local press, perhaps even details of the two others that made the 30 hour crawl back to the allied lines. The search continues

Cheers,
Peter

[rob carman]

Here is a photo of Herevy and others from a 1/5 Norfolk photoghraph album.   It shows C and D Coys, Officers’ Mess, In Seiret, 15 April 1917, just  48 h  before Gaza2.  Left: Hervey and Read, Right: Tett, Beck and Barton.  All, and the likely photographer (Tom Purdy), were 1/5 Bn officers.  Maj. Purdy must have been evacuated (kidney inflammation) soon after this photo wa taken; he was in Kantara on 19 April on a train going south and would not return to the Front for over a week.  (Purdy Archive via Norfolk in the First World War: Somme to Armistice Schools and Community Learning Pack). 

Rob.

Edited 17 April , 2023 by rob carman
bigger font

[PRC]

6 minutes ago, rob carman said:

It shows C and D Coys, Officers’ Mess, In Seiret, 15 April 1917, just  48 h  before Gaza2.  Left: Hervey and Read, Right: Tett, Beck and Barton.  All, and the likely photographer (Tom Purdy), were 1/5 Bn officers. 

Thanks Rob,

Funnily enough it was the sort of evidence I had in mind when I was writing my previous post but didn't really think it might exist. I'm fully 100% (well 99.999% confident - the individuals could have been mis-identified!) on board now that Lieutenant Hervey was with the 1/5th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, at 2nd Gaza.

Cheers,
Peter