Steve Potts Posted 8 August , 2009 Share Posted 8 August , 2009 I have been researching a soldier of the 1/4th Norfolk Regiment who died at around the time of the 2nd Battle of Gaza in 1917. For some reason he is buried in Baghdad. The 1/4th Norfolks were based at Gaza Shel-al at this time. I have written to the Norfolk Regimental museum and they confirm that there are serveral men from the 1/4th Norfolk Regiment buried in Baghdad. The only explanation they could provide was that the men were undergoing hospital treatment there. This is still a bit puzzling as there would have been hospitals nearer, like at Alexandria? Has anyone got any ideas as to why these men from 1/4th Norfolks were buried in Baghdad? Steve Potts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 8 August , 2009 Share Posted 8 August , 2009 I cannot offer any reason why these men are apparently buried there. Is this just confined to the 4th Norfolks, or are there any other Battalions from 163 Brigade of 54th Division represented? It would be very odd if was just the one Battalion. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Potts Posted 9 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2009 I cannot offer any reason why these men are apparently buried there. Is this just confined to the 4th Norfolks, or are there any other Battalions from 163 Brigade of 54th Division represented? It would be very odd if was just the one Battalion. Gareth Gareth, Thanks for replying. There are x 5 men from the 1/4th Btn Norfolks and x25 men from the 1/5th Norfolks which had also been fighting in Gaza, amongst the 4,160 Commonwealth forces burials in the Baghdad (North Gate) cemetery. The former men died between October 1916 and September 1918 and their battalions had been fighting in Gaza. The only explanation offered by the Royal Norfolk Regimantal Museum staff was that they were possibly receiving hospital treatment although this seems strange as to why these men were taken so far inland across the Syrian desert rather than being taken to Alexandria which was a lot closer. Perhaps the men could have been taken prisoner during the 1st Battle of Gaza or elsewhere and taken to Baghdad by the Turks? Steve Potts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Hi Steve By a strange coincidence I was today asked to check the details of a member of my local Battalion the 8th Hampshire's. L/Cpl E Rackett was captured as an unwounded prisoner during the 2nd battle of Gaza, 19th April 1917, he died as the result of Chronic Enteritis at Nigde Hospital (not a location I have come across before), and he is buried in Baghdad's North-gate cemetery. So I too have discovered that some of my interest group lie much further away than expected, I wonder if being a POW is the clue as you suggested. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Potts Posted 11 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 11 August , 2009 Gareth, thanks for your thoughts and concurring with my general idea. I think it's a real possibility that these men were captured in Palestine and moved to Baghdad as prisoners of the Turks. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 11 August , 2009 Share Posted 11 August , 2009 Hi Steve The answer lies in the details given by the CWGC in the historical notes concerning Baghdad Northgate The North Gate Cemetery was begun In April 1917 and has been greatly enlarged since the end of the First World War by graves brought in from other burial grounds in Baghdad and northern Iraq, and from battlefields and cemeteries in Anatolia where Commonwealth prisoners of war were buried by the Turks. I think we have it now, they were simply re-interred there after the war. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Potts Posted 13 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 13 August , 2009 Gareth, thanks for the reply again. The only trouble I have believing that he may have been brought in from another burial ground and buried at Baghdad is that when he died the 1/4 th Norfolks were at Gaza Shel Al and there is a large Commonwealth War Grave site at Gaza already, so why move him to Baghdad for burial? The man concerned is Pvt 203312 Oliver Samuel Wickham, died 1st October 1917. Regards Steve Potts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redescort Posted 13 August , 2009 Share Posted 13 August , 2009 Steve Most likely prisoners of war these two from the 5th Suffolk Regt were taken prisoner in Turkey but ended up at Baghdad. DURRANT Initials: H F Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Suffolk Regiment Unit Text: 5th Bn. Date of Death: 17/09/1916 Service No: 2211 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: XXI. R. 4. Cemetery: BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) WAR CEMETERY NICHOLSON Initials: R J Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Suffolk Regiment Unit Text: 1st/5th Bn. Date of Death: 08/02/1917 Service No: 240615 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Angora Mem. 123. Cemetery: BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) WAR CEMETERY Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryC Posted 6 August , 2012 Share Posted 6 August , 2012 Gareth/Steve Just wondering if you have any further info on this. I'm also looking into a relative buried in Baghdad (North Gate) War Cemetery Corporal Henry George Briggs Service No: 240901 Norfolk Regiment 1st/5th Bn Buried Baghdad (North Gate) Died: 04/01/1918 Looks like he is one of the 25 1/5 Norfolk's buried here mentioned earlier. Have you uncovered any further evidence relating to this? I'm curious as to why he is buried here - any help much appreciated. JerryC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 6 August , 2012 Share Posted 6 August , 2012 A quick look at the Brigade war diary states that on the day your man died the only thing that happened was that three hostile planes dropped three bombs without causing casualties. Most of the Brigade were stationed around the German Coloney of Wilhelma so they were a very long way from Bagdad. I have been able to find a partial POW list from the 8th Hants, there may be one for the 1/5. My understanding is there never was a comnprehensive list. With such a nice self contained area like the IOW, the local paper of the time is a gold mine of info. The local paper for Henry Briggs may have an indication of why and where he was during the later part of the war, but I suspect he was a POW. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryC Posted 8 August , 2012 Share Posted 8 August , 2012 Gareth Thanks for this. Sounds like he would have been a POW well before the date of his death. Were the bodies of POW's re-interred to Baghdad post the Armistice ? If so does that mean POW's from 1/5th & 1/4th Norfolks could have been taken from Gazza or even Gallipoli to Turkey & then shipped to Baghdad. As you can see I'm struggling with this one! Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 8 August , 2012 Share Posted 8 August , 2012 Although I have long learned never to say never, it is my understanding that those men of 163 Brigade buried in Baghdad are men who having been captured, died either of wounds in Turkish hospitals, or succumbed whilst working in camps all over Turkey. They were indeed transported away from the battlefield, one man of whom I have a diary was captured at Gallipoli on August 12th 1915, and ended up building a railway in Angora. These men if they had died were re-buried at North Gate. After the 2nd battle of Gaza the dead of 163 Brigade could not reached for burial, when this was eventually done some months later they were buried there. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 9 August , 2012 Share Posted 9 August , 2012 To confirm Gareth's statement re POWs....a relative I researched was captured at Gallipoli, Aug '15, and died, as many did, working on rail tunnel at Belemedik, on Baghdad-Istanbul railway, in January 1917. He is on the Angora memorial Many who died in captivity have no known grave, (although some were later re-intered at Baghdad North Gate) and these are the names on the Angora memorial. Looks like the man Nicholson above was one of these POWs with no known grave. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryC Posted 9 August , 2012 Share Posted 9 August , 2012 Thank you both for this Gareth Excuse my ignorance but I have yet to see a war diary (Is the relevant war diary WO 95/4657 ?)- I hope to visit kew before too long. I have not uncovered a great deal of info relating to the 1/5th Norfolks I understand that:- August 1914 formed East Dereham May 1915 renamed 163 Brigade 10 Aug 1915 Sulva Bay 19 Dec re-embark from Gallipoli to Alexandria Have you got any further details on their time at Gallipoli (what truth is there behind the David Jason BBC Production regarding Sandringham 1/5th) I'm trying to build up a picture of life at Gallipoli - trench maps, photos etc. Would the war diaries record missing personnel? Anything else of interest - I can't begin to imagine what life as a POW was like Thanks again JerryC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 9 August , 2012 Share Posted 9 August , 2012 Jerry if you do a bit of searching on this site for 4th Norfolks and 5th Norfolks as well as 163 Brigade you should find enough to get you started. You can also PM me, and I can send you some more stuff, but it will be after the weekend, as I am busy organising our annual memorial service to the action of the 12th August 1915. Our service will include the sounding of the bugle that set the whole Brigade advancing, sounded at the time by Bugle Major Peachey the brigades senior muscian. Its spine tingling when that instrument sounds the Last Post. Just one point, the Turks only took 35 prisoners from 163 Brigade on the evening of the 12th, all wounded. Any others were dispatched with the bayonet according to Major Munib who was defending the area. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 10 August , 2012 Share Posted 10 August , 2012 He certainly could have been a POW. One of my Grandfather's cousins, Sydney Gaskin of the 1st Ox & Bucks, was captured at Kut and died in Anatolia, later being reinterred at Baghdad North Gate as the cemeteries were concentrated. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryC Posted 10 August , 2012 Share Posted 10 August , 2012 Gareth Thanks yet again - I trust the service goes well. I was fortunate to attend the last post at Menin Gate in June. Very moving. JerryC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB Posted 15 August , 2012 Share Posted 15 August , 2012 Interesting topic. I have two groups in my collection to men taken POW at 1st Gaza, who ended up reinterred at Baghdad. One of the groups is extremely compete, in that there are Red Cross letters stating in which Turkish POW camps he was in the months following his capture. From memory, he died about 6 months after 1st Gaza, so would presumably have been buried in Turkey for well over a year before being reinterred. The other was actually my grandmothers uncle, William Frank Pearce, of the 1st/4th Welsh Regiment, who's plaque I have had since I was a kid. SteveB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryC Posted 15 August , 2012 Share Posted 15 August , 2012 Steve Very interesting - If you could provide any further info relating to his time as a POW, which camps etc would be great. Corporal Henry George Briggs Service No: 240901 Norfolk Regiment 1st/5th Bn Buried Baghdad (North Gate) Died: 04/01/1918 Plot XX1 which would seem to be the final resting place for a no of POW's who died in Turkey & were reinterred Thanks JerryC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB Posted 17 August , 2012 Share Posted 17 August , 2012 Hi Jerry, No prob! He's not Norfolk Regiment though, it's Essex Regiment. You still interested? SteveB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryC Posted 17 August , 2012 Share Posted 17 August , 2012 I'm interested to know what conditions were like for these POW's of the Turks. How much help was forthcoming from the Red Cross in those days? Were they held in camps or working along the railway in villages.? Have you seen any POW diaries from this era in Turkey? Thanks JerryC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB Posted 17 August , 2012 Share Posted 17 August , 2012 Hi Jerry, I read an excellent book recently called "Other Ranks of Kut", by PW Long. I'd highly recommend it if you are interested in where the POWs of the Turks ended up. Will dig out the Red Cross correspondance I refered to tomorrow. Cheers SteveB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB Posted 20 August , 2012 Share Posted 20 August , 2012 Hi Jerry, Sorry for delay. I have checked the papers I have for Pte JH Jones, 1/6 Essex Regiment. Taken prisoner at 1st Gaza, his mother had notification dated May 19th 1917 that he was being held at what looks in the letter like Pouzante camp. Following this she received a 2nd notification that "internment camp not yet know. Not at Pouzante as previously notified". He died on the 7th July 1917. Finally on the 26th August 1927 she received correspondence from the Imperial War Graves Commision saying that after investigation, they ascertained that he was buried with a number of other British soldiers at Baghtche Cemetary, Asia Minor. It went on to say that it was found necessary to rebury them in Baghdad (North Gate) Cemetary, "in order to secure reverent maintainance of the graves in perpetuity". Hope this helps. SteveB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryC Posted 22 August , 2012 Share Posted 22 August , 2012 Thank you for your help to date. I spoke to one of my Aunts earlier & she confirmed that her Uncle (Corporal H G Briggs 1/5th Norfolk) was at Gallipoli & subsequently a POW of the Turks. She knew he died while as a POW but had no idea he was buried in Baghdad. She may have some correspondence - will let you know in due course. Where should I look for further info now? Will the war diary record those missing ?- i would like to determine if he became a POW at Gallipoli or later on the war in an other 163 Brigade action. Thanks again JerryC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 22 August , 2012 Share Posted 22 August , 2012 Unfortunately most War Diaries do not record Other Ranks by name. Your best bet will be a search in the NA for any documents recording POWs from the 5th Norfolks. They were sent small sums of money through the Dutch, and a list of potential recipients should be there in Foriegn Office documents. At least they are for the 8th Hants. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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