Lambis Prevented Being OnSite

[Peter and Ellen]

To those who know Lambis, he would demand nothing, it is not in his nature. Passionate, YES, demanding, NEVER.

It took another member of the group to bludgeon the Australian Army Historians into conducting the initial research at Pheasant Wood by hitting the Australian Press and stating that the group would organise their own team of archeological specialists to conduct the tests.

Lambis told me he would never have done it that way, it is not the way he does things, but he was a part of a small group working on the matter. I believe him.

Regards, Peter

[MartH]

If I recall there was a Time's journalist on another Fromelles thread asking about stories relating to people's antecedents.

Is it time that they where alerted to this thread? I not wishes to stir things, but if there is true in the story the best way to get it resolved is to get it out in the open.

Apologies Mods if I've brought the Forum into disrepute, feel free to delete this post.

[rendellers]

Everything I have read about Formelles on this site leads back to Lambis. Whatever happens from here on in only he will be able to write the chapter about HIS research that has lead us to this day

[Fedelmar]

I would hope Patrick Lindsay does that when his next book comes out

[Auimfo]

I spoke to Lambis just before he left for France and I've got to say that he has to be one of the most humble people I've ever met. I quizzed him about his exclusion from the site and although I could tell he was disappointed, his response was along the lines of "as long as the boys are found and every attempt made to identify them".

He may be persistent and passionate but there is no way anyone could call him demanding.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Fedelmar]

The world has a lot to be grateful for when there are men like Lambis. The people from the UK and Australia should honour this man.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[John_Hartley]

He may be persistent and passionate but there is no way anyone could call him demanding.

Tim

I know that you will have fully read my post #44 and seen the context in which I used the word "demand".

You will have seen that my critical comments on this thread are not directed towards Mr Englezos but towards those who, by their choice of language here and innuendo, seem to want to make their own "politics" on the issue. As an outsider, one really does start to wonder who are the ones playing games.

Needless to say, I have chosen my words very carefully on all of my posts to this thread and stand by them.

John

[ianw]

John is quite right to point out the context of his use of the word "demand" in his post 44. Posters including myself may have misinterpreted the nuances of it. That said, my current state of knowledge is that Lambis has been denied access, other than once, to what many regard as "his" site having presumably travelled round the globe to be at Fromelles for the early part of the dig. We still don't know if he has used his one off access ticket yet. If he has been granted better access now, I would be delighted. I don't like John see Lambis' treatment as "politics" but just damned unfair.

I am also less sanguine than John at the prospects of Lambis being accorded full recognition at the eventual cemetery opening ceremony - I hope I am wrong but the current attitude to Lambis that I interprete as manifest disrespect will have to be modified a lot in the interim. We shall see.

I for one have alerted the Times journalist interested in Fromelles to this state of affairs via his email address. It remains to be seen if he will take note of this. I hope he does because we need some hard info about what is going on - although I suspect that Lambis may choose to keep his council to avoid diverting attention from the job in hand - I rather think that is what he might well do and I would fully respect that. His dignified silence is a credit to him but I think that other people must speak out on his behalf.

[Auimfo]

Fully understand what you were saying John - I just didn't want anyone else to misinterpret it.

The unfortunate thing is that it appears it's not the people here that are playing 'politics' and the alleged innuendo is far closer to the truth than most realise.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Guest]

They are dead, they cannot say thank you or no thank you. They cannot say what they want to happen to their remains, and yet some of the present day, want to make names for themselves, and play politics over these men.

It stinks.

A simple man had the conviction that unknowns were buried in a farmer's field, and gives his all to have them found.

Yes, they are found, but at what cost?

So that they can be reburied, acknowledged and possibly named. So that we can again pay our respects and say thank you to these dead. With due respect. So Lambis forsaw.

But then in steps human nature. Reputations to be made, saved? Money involved? We said, he said?

Get over it, those that want glory!!

It is not about today, it is about what these men did and died for, and how they died, and why they are in these pits; it is about acknowledging their efforts.

And this is all Lambis has wanted.

Why does there have to be all the "politiking" and "we'll take over from here" crap??

If, and hopefully will be, that I am there next July, as I say thank you to the men who have been dead for so long, I will also say thank you to Lambis for his dedication to the these men of WW1, and for bringing them in from the darkness.

Lest we forget why we remember.

Kim

[John_Hartley]

Let's be blunt here.

I suspect that if this had been any other subject discussed on the GWF, the mods would have closed the thread down on the grounds that the unsubstantiated remarks and innuendo are potentially libelous. And I am, frankly, surprised that they have not taken warning action.

But they havn't. So let me take full advantage of that.

What various member here are alleging here is that, in a nutshell, Mr Englezos and, possibly, others are being sidelined so that others might financially profit and gain "glory". Clearly potentially defamatory to individuals employed by official bodies or respected professionals.

But the innuendo leaves the rest of us on the sidelines. Who is being accused of "dirty politics"? There seems to be now only four bodies involved in this that it could be. But which? Wouldn't it be fair play if those making the accusations were not tarring everyone with the same brush?

Is it Oxford Archaeology?

Is it an agency of the Australian government?

An agency of the British government?

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission?

How do these organisation financially benefit and gain the glory. Shouldnt those making the accusuation be up-front in what you have to say. Or do you prefer all to be tarred with the same brush?

Which of these gains by preventing Mr Englezos from visiting the site only once. And, out of interest, what does anyone know what "once" means in this case? A ten minute trip round the site? A one-off visit lasting several days? Innuendo doesnt make that clear, does it?

Mr Englezos is quoted in the newspaper article as saying it would have been nice if he could have had a "meet and greet" role. I'm sure it would and I can think of no-one better placed to have such a role. Is such a role needed, now there's a closed site and no-one to meet and greet?

So, if you want fairness, let's please have some fairness demonstrated. And let's not hide behind the innunendo or spinning any criticism of what you are saying into some idea that it is an attack on Mr Englezos' character and efforts.

If all we are wanting is that these men are buried with dignity and identified where possible, then we would all now shut up and let those who can bring this to fruition get on with it without sniping at them from an internet discussion board. I find the tone of many of the posts here really very disappointing.

John

[PBI]

The Truth Will Out...eventually.

[Peter and Ellen]

I would be very interested in hearing what Lambis did over the weekend.

Ian, Lambis was in France for the weekend. He has paid his own airfare and I found him in the village of Fromelles this morning. Will be meeting him tomorrow morning as we have a lot to discuss.

Regards, Peter

[ianw]

Peter ,

I hope he is aware of the esteem that many of us hold him in. Please report back on how he is doing if you feel this is appropriate.

Ian

[Peter and Ellen]

Hi Ian,

Lambis is doing well and still does not know how he can contribute but just could not sit at home in Australia waiting........ he just needed to be here. He is being given a bed in Fromelles and can be seen walking around out there. So, everyone, keep a lookout when you are in the area. He is most approachable and will tell the story of Fromelles to anyone who will listen.

He believes that the first set of remains will be lifted in the next few days.

We hold our collective breaths, for "the boys", as we momentarily disturb their rest before giving them a new place, where family and friends can walk amongst them, calling their names and tell them that they are not forgotten.

LEST WE FORGET

Peter

[Fedelmar]

It is a privilige and a pleasure to be working with Lambis to reunite these boys with families and friends.

LEST WE FORGET

[ShirlD]

If all we are wanting is that these men are buried with dignity and identified where possible, then we would all now shut up and let those who can bring this to fruition get on with it without sniping at them from an internet discussion board. I find the tone of many of the posts here really very disappointing.

John

I hear what you are saying in the whole post John, I also agree with what you say above that we would allow the men to be buried with dignity. The trouble is I am still left with a sense of disquiet, or a notion I am finding difficult to put into words that there is something not quite right about the way it has been handled, and that someone has been given a raw deal. (I am sure the professional details of the mechanics of the task are a hundred percent, and the process will continue until the men are buried in a cemetery that will be all the more poignant for its history)

This is just my own opinion, however, after following this for the last couple of years. I certainly would not wish to place this forum or any individual in a potential libellous situation I feel very strongly about this, and just wanted to add my tuppenceworth. I guess the line between personal opinion, and slander is indeed a slender one

Cheers

Shirley

[Paul Reed]

I was up at Fromelles today with a group, on our way back to the UK from a week at Arras. Many of the group had read about the on-going work and wanted to see the ground. We were very lucky to meet Lambis - purely by chance - on arrival, and he kindly climbed on board, told everyone about the battle, came down to the battlefield with us, and then accompanied us to the viewing area. It made the group's day and he asked me to leave the following message for all his friends here:

"All is well."

[ianw]

Paul - many thanks for the message telling us that all is well with Lambis. This has cheered me up immensely. It is so fitting that he is at Fromelles and in good spirits.

Peter - yes, we do look towards Fromelles hoping for a great success and , fingers crossed, some IDs.

[Fedelmar]

Thanks Paul ... although I suspect Lambis said 'all's good' ... which is his favourite catch cry

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Cliff Rumsey]

Thanks for that heartening update Paul.

Most timely and welcome.

Not sure I really understand much of this thread but to think that the outcome of so much endeavour has produced the right result for these men sends a tingle down my spine and makes me very proud of anybody who has played a part in that process.

Hope to visit Fromelles and pay my respects at some stage.

[Fedelmar]

I have been working on the family histories and research of these boys for almost two years. I doubt that I will ever get to France to read their names on headstones.

Lest We Forget.

[Paul Reed]

Thanks Paul ... although I suspect Lambis said 'all's good' ... which is his favourite catch cry

Bright Blessings

Sandra

You could be right, Sandra. It was a hot morning at the end of a very hot week, and I suspect my brain was a little cooked. I know he was keen to let his friends here know that everything was ok.

[Fedelmar]

From CWGC ...

Welcome to the Remembering Fromelles Newsletter Issue 2

Welcome to the second edition of the Remembering Fromelles newsletter. Through this newsletter we will keep you up to date with developments in the Fromelles recovery project, which is now well underway.

Update from the site

As was expected to be the case in a Northern European spring, heavy rain has been a feature of the fourth week of Oxford Archaeology's excavation operations. OA's inclement weather mitigation strategies proved commendable and as a consequence they remain on schedule. They are making methodical progress with teams working in the two westernmost burial pits, known as ‘Grave One' and ‘Grave Two'. The remaining six burial pits remain covered and will be uncovered in turn after all remains have been recovered from the first two graves.

Since commencing operations, the opened graves have been excavated by machine to just above the burials, using a careful and slow process involving the removal of soil in 20 cm ‘spits', with each spit scanned for unexploded ordnance and artefacts. Remains were revealed at approximately 1.20m (Grave One) and 1.30m (Grave Two). From this point, all excavation work continued by hand, with procedures in place to control the potential for contamination of DNA. These measures include wearing full personal protective equipment such as Tyvek (white) suits, masks, gloves and hair nets.

The final exposure and removal of remains is intricate work that involves very small archaeological tools and hand held metal detectors. As they are recovered, the soldiers' remains are X-rayed and taken through the on-site temporary mortuary for scientific analysis and cataloguing.

Numerous artefacts have been found in association with the remains. The majority of these are buckles, buttons, press studs and fragments of fabric from the 1908 pattern webbing equipment that both Australian and British soldiers wore at the Battle of Fromelles. Significant finds include:

large shell fragments;

a complete gas mask;

a soldier who had a full set of webbing equipment, large fragments of jacket, socks and leather ends to trouser braces, has again be uncovered. He had previously been uncovered by GUARD during their May 2008 limited excavation;

a British general service button associated with a set of remains in Grave Two;

a Rising Sun badge adjacent to the clavicle of an individual in Grave Two;

Australian jacket belt buckles.

It is anticipated that DNA pilot testing will commence in the coming week, subject to final contractual arrangements being agreed. It is hoped that this process will significantly assist in the identification of the soldiers and allow as many of them the dignity of a named headstone as possible.

See the latest blog entry for more information and photographs of what has been found.

Lambis Englezos visits the Fromelles site

He’s the man to whom everyone working on the Fromelles project is indebted. Lambis Englezos, a retired Australian school teacher has laboured tirelessly to discover the whereabouts of the missing soldiers who were known to have fought at the Battle of Fromelles. Lambis is now in France, and a regular visitor to the excavation site. With work now underway, the big question is, how does he feel? “Well it’s good to have come back and revisit the site and watch the next step in the work and feel this sense of tangible momentum, with the recovery now underway. Oxford Archaeology experts are now here and hopefully we can give these men the dignity of reburial and hopefully their identity.”

Lambis has devoted years to this project, so what’s been his reaction to seeing the graves unearthed? “The momentum is really good. Having been here last year, it was clear that the men were not at rest, and there is now the chance to give them that dignity of an individual burial. I have met survivors of the Battle, and it’s become personal for me and as I say, we now have this chance to give these men back their dignity.” Whilst the work has only just begun, Lambis is clearly pleased. “It’s been a wonderful result. I’ve received a lot of help along the way and there has never been a personal vindication factor in any of this. Certainly I have always been concerned at the end result. I would like to thank the staff of the Australian Army for establishing the process to bring us to this point, and now there is a job of work to be done here, which is being done and hopefully the day will come when we have a new Fromelles Pheasant Wood Cemetery and these men can be given their dignity and hopefully their identity.”

Editor's note: Lambis gave a presentation to Oxford Archaeology staff on-site in Fromelles in late May. His fascinating presentation on his instrumental work and findings that led to the work on which the OA staff are now employed was very well received. Thanks Lambis.

New articles on the website

We have added new articles to the website which give more information about the background of the project, including the work of Lambis Englezos, Peter Barton and the Glasgow University Archaeological Research Division. Click here to go to the articles.

You can also find new photos of the excavations and building work in the image library.

[john jerome mcmanus]

G,day all,

To try and avert too many diverse postings on the subject of Fromelles, I list the following under this heading.

The latest edition of "Reveille" (May-June 2009 Vol 82, No 3) the journal of the New South Wales RSL has advised (page 9) that among recipients of "The ANZAC of the Year Award" was Lambis Englezos of Victoria

-'in recognition of his untiring and tenacious work towards the discovery of the burial site of World War 1 Australian soldiers at Pheasant Wood in France'.

The ANZAC of the Year Awards are made annually 'to recognise the efforts and achievements of up to seven Australians who have given service to their fellow Australians and to the community in a positive, selfless and compassionate manner'

Well done Lambis and well deserved.

Regards

Pop

(Sean McManus)