Obscure WW1 questions thread

[geraint]

Andrew

I'll have to check on the brothers. I thought both were in two service btns RWF. Though I can recall a Jones Bateman mentioned by Graves, but 2nd RWF being regular, sounds wrong to me. I don't know about Pentre Mawr. I think Reginald Llywelyn JB is the same man. I'll get back to you.

[centurion]

But by the Great War, were worn as part of the uniform, including being worn by cavalry and senior officers who walked as far as the staff car. No saving in cost was ' merely' for QM.

And when introduced as part of the uniform before WW1 they were intended as support for the leg muscles!

[IanA]

There are lots of adders here, in the hills and on moorland. It is very difficult to even see one far less get close enough to be bitten. They are very sensitive to noise.

Hence the saying: 'As deaf as an adder'....

Sorry, couldn't resist. Snakes are sensitive to vibration along the ground and also to scents.

[TonyE]

1) What is a "James bomb"? Someone asked this in another thread and I don't think it got answered.

2) Why were British small arms of .303 calibre? Why such an odd choice? (".300 calibre? That'll never do! .303, on the other hand, is just what we want!")

I can't help with the James bomb, and the choice of .303" as a calibre is a rather long story, but I shall endeavour to be brief.

Essentially it stems from the cartridges developed by the Swiss officer Rubin. His ammunition came to the attention of the War Office in 1885 and this was a rimless straight cased round with a calibre of 7.5mm (approx. .295"). Britain ordered 500 rounds for trial in Decwember 1885 and another 500 in January 1886. The calibre of these was given as .300 inch.

Experiments continued with more ammunition purchased from Greenwood & Batley of Leeds, who had the British rights to the Rubin rifle and ammunition and in July 1887 RSAF Enfield made up three barrels with a calibre of .303", .307" and .310". Remember these are land diameters, the groove diameter being about 8 thou larger.

In October 1887 the committee recommended a rifle of .303 inch calibre with an improved Lee action be trialed for service. The 350 rifles made for troop trials in 1888 used a rimmed Rubin case but of course the rifle eventually adopted as the Lee Metford Mark I used the bottleneck case so familiar to us today.

Picture shows:

Top. Original 1885 rimless round

Bottom. 1888 troop trials round

Regards

TonyE

[Guest]

Have this man 2nd Lt Fergus Robertson. Scottish National War Memorial has him as " Died in German hands "

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=904198

Does anyone know where best to look for cause of death?

Was " in German hands " a phrase used for any Soldier who died in captivity?

Any other thoughts ?

Cheers Mike

[Martin Bennitt]

I can't help with the James bomb, and the choice of .303" as a calibre is a rather long story, but I shall endeavour to be brief.

Essentially it stems from the cartridges developed by the Swiss officer Rubin. His ammunition came to the attention of the War Office in 1885 and this was a rimless straight cased round with a calibre of 7.5mm (approx. .295"). Britain ordered 500 rounds for trial in Decwember 1885 and another 500 in January 1886. The calibre of these was given as .300 inch.

Experiments continued with more ammunition purchased from Greenwood & Batley of Leeds, who had the British rights to the Rubin rifle and ammunition and in July 1887 RSAF Enfield made up three barrels with a calibre of .303", .307" and .310". Remember these are land diameters, the groove diameter being about 8 thou larger.

In October 1887 the committee recommended a rifle of .303 inch calibre with an improved Lee action be trialed for service. The 350 rifles made for troop trials in 1888 used a rimmed Rubin case but of course the rifle eventually adopted as the Lee Metford Mark I used the bottleneck case so familiar to us today.

But why go for a rimmed round, which turned out to be prone to jamming, if I'm not mistaken, though no expert, rather than the rimless?

cheers Martin B

[TonyE]

Ironically it was because it was thought at the time that a rimless round would be more liable to jam in a machine gun.

Regards

TonyE

[James Kastner]

Essentially it stems from the cartridges developed by the Swiss officer Rubin. His ammunition came to the attention of the War Office in 1885 and this was a rimless straight cased round...<snip>

TonyE, the rimless, straight case is an interesting concept. How was headspace determined with no rim or shoulder ? From the ogave ?

What is the reason the government went with a rimmed case ? Since they were using a "shouldered/bottlenecked" cartridge it would seem, at least to me that a rimmed case is not needed.

Also, the barrel diameter is .303 what is the bullet diameter ? Slightly under ? .300 ? or is it close to the original .295 ?

Thanks for any and all information to satisfy my curiosity.

Jim

[Nigel Marshall]

I was going to ask if the Victoria Cross is actually cast from the bronze of two Russian cannon. I read a brief snip on this a while back. But a Google of Wiki provided an answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross. Is it correct ?

James when using Wikiwotsit, ALWAYS exercise caution. The bit about five WWII VC's being made from metal of a different origin is utter rubbish. VC's are cast in 'trees' of twelve medals and suspension bars. Hancock's sent me a photograph of a 'tree' some years ago, but due to express copyright restrictions I may not reproduce it.

If my maths is right there will be three left in the drawer at Hancock's from a batch cast after the first VC of the Vietnam war exhausted the previous batch. My reckoning for this is that on Clarkson's programme, Hancock's had seven in the drawer waiting for owners, and four have been won since then.

If there are any medals of different source metal, then there will be twelve or multiples thereof.

Cheers,

Nigel

[David B]

Did the guys in the trenches and other areas have access to canteen services and who supplied them.

Ever picture you see they have a fag hanging of their lips so must have been able to get tobacco for instance.

If there were canteens what other articles/goods/eats etc did they supply

david

[Kate Wills]

There were units called the Expeditionary Force Canteens, which stocked an array of goods including tobacco and edibles.

[TonyE]

TonyE, the rimless, straight case is an interesting concept. How was headspace determined with no rim or shoulder ? From the ogave ?

What is the reason the government went with a rimmed case ? Since they were using a "shouldered/bottlenecked" cartridge it would seem, at least to me that a rimmed case is not needed.

Also, the barrel diameter is .303 what is the bullet diameter ? Slightly under ? .300 ? or is it close to the original .295 ?

Thanks for any and all information to satisfy my curiosity.

Jim

I will try to answer the questions as briefly as possible, as one could write pages on this topic.

The Rubin design was unique in the way the bullet was secured in the case. The difference in diameter between the interior of the case neck and the bullet was taken up by a brass split collar that gripped the bullet. The purpose of this was twofold. It allowed a case of higher capacity and also simplified manufacture. One of Rubin's innovations was that the blackpowder charge was made as a compressed pellet prior to loading as this allowed more propellant for a given case volume than loose powder. The disadvantage of this was that the pellet was of larger diameter than the bullet diameter and so had to be inserted before the case was "necked". Necking the case after insertion of the powder was a difficult operation so Rubin adopted the split collar solution. The advantage was it formed a distinct "step" and the rimless case could be headspaced on this. Of course, with the modified rimmed Rubin case the rim could be used for headspacing

The troop trials showed up the deficiencies of the Rubin case design when the collar occassionally became separated from the case and lodged in the barrel, causing the next bullet fired to bulge the barrel. Thus when the Lee-Metford Mark I was introduced in 1889 a conventionally bottlenecked design was chosen that became the .303 case as we know it today.

The rimmed case desgn was chosen because the consensus at the time was that a rimless case would be more prone to jammimg in MGs than a rimmed case. Whilst this may seem counter intuitive today, it must be remembered that at the time their experience had been gained on Nordenfelt and Gardner guns which were ideal for a rimmed cartridge. The "new" Maxim gun also worked perfectly well with a rimmed case as the rising extractor slid over the case rim and pulled it from the belt. It was only later when MGs were designed that used push-through rather than pull-out belt feed systems and box magazines that the advantages of a rimless design became apparent.

With regard to the actual barrel dimensions, for the Metford system the land diameter was .303" and the groove depth .004". The Metford barrel had seven grooves and lands that were "smoothed" rather than sharply defined, but as a groove was always opposite a land the width at any one point was .307" although the theoretical maximum diameter was .311". The Enfield system of rifling which was introduced when cordite came into service had five sharply defined grooves .005" deep, giving a maximum width of .308" and a maximum diameter of .312". I hope that explanation is clear, but if I have still confused I can post diagrams of the rifling systems.

Bullet diameter was a nominal .311" (Spec. was H .312" - L .310") and the bullet was designed to "set-up" when fired. This means that at the moment of firing as the bullet enters the leed of the rifling, the gas pressure expands the soft lead at the rear of the bullet into the rifling thus ensuring a gas tight seal between bullet and barrel.

As a matter of interest, when armour piercing bullets were first introduced in WWI there was a problem because the steel core could not set-up in the same way lead cored bullets did. The result was that AP bullets were made slightly larger in diameter to ensure a good seal.

I hope that explains things!

Regards

TonyE

[Martin Bennitt]

Thanks Tony

cheers Martin B

[David B]

I have heard it said that a Vickers machine gun's barrel is worn out after 10,000 rounds have been fired. Presumably it

could still be used with reduced accuracy after that point. Further how do you change the barrel anyway, is it screwed out, clipped

or what

david

[James Kastner]

Excellent information TonyE.

Thanks !

Jim

[Guest]

Re: post #55

Was just wondering if " died in German hands " was a normal phrase used for anyone who had died in captivity, or was something more sinister implied?

Cheers Mike

[auchonvillerssomme]

There are 93 records in SDGW where place of enlistment is 'In the field' the vast majority being RE. So my question is, were these transfers or those arriving in France with a trade and being enlisted straight into a unit?

[Chris_Baker]

Did the guys in the trenches and other areas have access to canteen services and who supplied them.

In addition to the EFCs were things like this: http://www.1914-1918.net/ymca.htm

[David B]

Did a runner (message) carry any weapons or did he put his head down and go as fast as possible

David

[geraint]

From my understanding (can't remember which memoire) a runner always carried a rifle, and could be punished if he lost it.

[Guest]

You're probably right Geraint. I was just trying to remember if Mel Gibsons character in Gallipoli was a runner. I don't remember him carrying a rifle but since when have war films been accurate: or it may have been a different policy for the Australians?

Cheers mike

[David B]

What ? a war film accurate yerve got to be joking. I'm not sure that Gallipoli would have been a good example of

a runners trade, it was all downhill werent it ?

david

[Nigel Marshall]

Fact or Myth?

The Tyne Cot Cemetery Cross of Sacrifice is visible with the naked eye from cross channel ferries (on clear days).

I've seen this mentioned in numerous books, but none answers the question, they just say 'It is said that...'

Cheers,

Nigel

ps, the runners trade was only downhill on the way there..... the way back was a different matter altogether!

[Nigel Marshall]

Further how do you change the barrel anyway, is it screwed out, clipped or what

David,

For anything Vickers related, you absolutely must visit this website. You'll be able to download manuals and engineering drawings which will answer your question.

Cheers,

Nigel

[truthergw]

Fact or Myth?

The Tyne Cot Cemetery Cross of Sacrifice is visible with the naked eye from cross channel ferries (on clear days).

I've seen this mentioned in numerous books, but none answers the question, they just say 'It is said that...'

Cheers,

Nigel

ps, the runners trade was only downhill on the way there..... the way back was a different matter altogether!

This was discussed a good while ago and I think it was decided that it was wrong. I know it is more or less invisible from the tunnel unless the weather is exceptionally clear.