sjustice Posted 13 August , 2008 Share Posted 13 August , 2008 Carl, What for? This thread was started for that purpose... Attcahed is a picture of one of the 13 pndrs of the Kings Troop. On the front plate are 4 verticle pieces of wood that have been painted, 3 green and one white. I have a 13 pndr which we will begin restoring shortly, could anyone tell me why the one piece is white? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahoehler Posted 13 August , 2008 Share Posted 13 August , 2008 Carl, What for? This thread was started for that purpose... Simon The original question was about the Kings Troop and as you now ask "is it safe to assume they have no idea why they paint their guns the way they do?" I brought in the Nery gun at the IWM hoping at least that somebody would look at the origins of that stripe on a very well known and possibly the most famous gun of all, and then explain why it was necessary in 1914 and if in fact the Nery gun was restored to original condition. It appears that the white stripe was in fact not necessary in 1914 but became a bit of 'detailing'. From 1985 videos of the Kings Troop there appears to have been a lot more 'detailing' of the ceremonial guns and like the uniforms and head gear were in fact very spectacular. I know nothing about horses and horsemanship but it would seem that the very complex drills are so well practiced and executed that there is no need for the white line. Andi Lucas has supplied this link for the Lovett Artillery Collection http://www.lovettartillery.com/German%20Ar...0Equipment.html and these videos are under Horse Artillery (British Army, Kings Troop). Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Frank Posted 14 August , 2008 Author Share Posted 14 August , 2008 We have been given approval to do 2 of the 13 pndr THA guns, not limbers at this stage as funds remain limited. I will run a thread once we get going. I do not think I will go as far as the RHA guns, they look a little gaudy for my taste. I will try and stick to the original as far possible. The jury is still out the white line and I will take it under further advisement before I make the final decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahoehler Posted 14 August , 2008 Share Posted 14 August , 2008 . . . as the RHA guns, they look a little gaudy for my taste. The jury is still out the white line . . . Frank Gaudy to match the cermonial tunics and head dress? It really looks like you will have to 'engage' the IWM on the genesis of that stripe. It will be interesting to see if that stripe is on the Nery gun because it is on the Kings Troop's guns and it is on the Kings Troop's guns because it is on the Nery gun. Or is it simply a case of (insert your own accent and preferred adjective) G "But Boss" B "Dont give me a blerrie story. Just paint the blerrie thing" Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahoehler Posted 14 August , 2008 Share Posted 14 August , 2008 From Pierre Grand Guerre's new pages on the Marne http://pierreswesternfront.punt.nl/?id=430...l_archief=& The bottom line is interesting. Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExREME Posted 14 August , 2008 Share Posted 14 August , 2008 Still no answers, come on guys, soemone MUST know or know who to ask? Yo might try the School of Artillery at Larkhill, possibly the Chief Instructor (or Master Gunner) would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 14 August , 2008 Share Posted 14 August , 2008 The King's Troop guns are indeed bulled to the extreme and the uniform is pre WW1 full dress. I don't somehow think they would be impressed with being referred to as "gaudy" but each is entitled to their opinion and I accept that the remark was made with reference to the guns themselves. However, common practice in the British Army seems to be that everything that is used for ceremonial duties is bulled beyond belief. In the illustrations of the action at Nery that I have seen I have never seen a white stripe shown on any of the guns. Pre WW1 the RHA had the reputation of being the smartest turned out unit in the British Army so perhaps they had white stripes before war was declared although again I have never seen this in a photograph or illustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Frank Posted 15 August , 2008 Author Share Posted 15 August , 2008 I don't somehow think they would be impressed with being referred to as "gaudy" but each is entitled to their opinion................ I was very careful to add "they look a little gaudy for my taste" and i was, of course refering to the guns. I would hate to think that my humble opinion would insult such an illustrious a unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjustice Posted 15 August , 2008 Share Posted 15 August , 2008 If the illustrious unit would grace us with a reply perhaps we could find out! Kind Regards, SMJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 15 August , 2008 Share Posted 15 August , 2008 My suspicion is that they were given a white line for the same reason stones outside guardrooms were painted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 15 August , 2008 Share Posted 15 August , 2008 My thought exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 15 August , 2008 Share Posted 15 August , 2008 Nigel What would have been the purpose of the 'blades' and if they provided some form of very rough open sight would they have then been adjustable? And even Kilroy would have felt exposed to those pesky snipers. If I've understood the purpose of these open sights correctly, as previously quoted, then they were to give the Number 1 an indication of what was within the 'field' of his top traverse (a perfectly reasonble idea in the age of direct fire, but invites the question as to why 18 pr didn't have them). Obviously when the carriage was traversed this field changed. The Number 1 was responsible for carriage traverse (ie he used the handspike at the trail). Since the top traverse was fixed it makes absolutely no sense to be able to move the 'blades' along the top of the shield (assuming the purpose was as summarised), and the pictures indicate thay were fixed to the shield. Since there is no rear sight the position of the blades on the shield is determined by where the No 1 stood in accordance with the Gun Drill. It's also interesting that this indication of the field of view of top traverse was not later considered necessary for 25-pr anti tank purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 15 August , 2008 Share Posted 15 August , 2008 My suspicion is that they were given a white line for the same reason stones outside guardrooms were painted. Yep, I smell an over enthusiastic RSM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 15 August , 2008 Share Posted 15 August , 2008 Congrats to the many contributors ..... way above my head as a humble afficionado of the PBI, but very interesting and erudite. This is a splendid example of the excellence of the Forum. Well done. 'If it moves, salute it, if not, paint it!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahoehler Posted 15 August , 2008 Share Posted 15 August , 2008 If I've understood the purpose of these open sights correctly . . . Nigel A direct quote from page 248 of Trawin's Early British Quick Firing Artillery (Field and Horse) and they originally might have seemed a good idea in the drawing office BUT the Nery gun still has one and only one. Excuse me - I have to now go and paint 1000 white stones as punishment for quoting blindly. Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjjobson Posted 15 August , 2008 Share Posted 15 August , 2008 Apologies if this appears twice, I'm being a bit digitally challenged today. I did contact The Gunner magazine at Larkhill reference this question and they kindly enquired about it through the RA Master Gunner. Hence my earlier post, giving the "official" reason for the white stripe, which I beleive has been comprehensively trashed by the subsequent posts. I was originally a beleiver in the reason given by the RSA, however, I now beleive that it is indeed a matter of bull (or Bliff, as King's Troop call it). I look forward to many more interesting artillery posts in the future. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 15 August , 2008 Share Posted 15 August , 2008 If it is bull( or bliff) it is a superlative example. I bet BSMs had little notes as to how wide the strip had to be and how white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Frank Posted 18 August , 2008 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2008 Check out http://www.vision-news.tv/page_single_v1.p...0&nwsid=653 for a view of the white stripe and other info re the 13pndr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahoehler Posted 18 August , 2008 Share Posted 18 August , 2008 Frank Thanks for the video Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahoehler Posted 11 September , 2008 Share Posted 11 September , 2008 So when did this habit start? Where are the contemporaneous pictures? . . . . This image was taken from the Masters’ thesis by Erasmus Wentzel Nortier on Major General Sir Henry Timson Lukin. (1860-1925): The making of a South African hero. This thesis is at http://etd.sun.ac.za/jspui/bitstream/10019...er,%20E%20W.pdf These are probably the very same 13-pounders that were supplied to the Transvaal Horse Artillery and which are to be restored by Fat Frank. The THA had its Depot at Auckland Park and and this Depot was also used by the Artillery School before WW1. The image was acquired by devious means and so is of less than good resolution. I will post an enlarged clip of each gun and there does not seem to be a white line on an occasion when a bit of detailing would have probably been appropriate. The first image Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahoehler Posted 11 September , 2008 Share Posted 11 September , 2008 The other image Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 11 September , 2008 Share Posted 11 September , 2008 Hello, Great to see the film clip of my old Regiment. They did not have ladies in it when I was there, probably just as well . I was a Limber Gunner for a while and I have painted the white strip on D Subs gun. I always just thought it was an extra bit of ''Bull''. Cheers, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Frank Posted 7 October , 2008 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2008 I have been informed that the "stripe" was silver before it became white. Does this shed any more light? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 7 October , 2008 Share Posted 7 October , 2008 The bottom line is interesting.Carl, I believe the quote refers back to Becke's hypothesis in his book on the action at Nery. He postulated that the German 4th Cavalry Division was so roughly handled that it had to be sent to the German right wing to recuperate. However, the unit was not able to perform its screening functions properly. Hence it failed to detect the movement of Manoury's Sixth Army until too late. In turn, this let the Battle of the Marne unfold in favour of the Allies. Slight exaggeration of the importance of Nery but what the heck. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahoehler Posted 9 October , 2008 Share Posted 9 October , 2008 . . . Becke's hypothesis in his book on the action at Nery. Robert Thank you. I was surprised that no provenance was given on the monument. My initial response was that the quotation marks had been added by a xenophobic French stone cutter to mitigate that possible "slight exaggeration" although the use of air quotation marks has now become a widespread habit . Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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