RHA 13 pndr

[nigelfe]

John, are you saying that in the British artillery safety limits for live fire are always rectangular, with left, right, maximum and minimum limits? In the U.S. we usually have safety limits that have doglegs, that is, with different left, right, max and min limits on the same safety diagram, specific for a particular charge of course.

It depends which range. IIRC this was normal practice on German ranges (run by the Bundeswehr) and applied to the US using them (all arty ranges in GE were so run to German regulations).

UK ranges have irregular shaped impact areas. However there's a trade-off, irregular impact areas mean more complicated safety at each gun, a 4 point area (which is obviously not a rectangle) is much simpler and means safety is less intrusive. Of course the computer is also set up with the safe impact area (it's just another type of battlefield geometry) and should prevent any rounds being aimed outside it.

My suggestion about the the white line (I can't think of any good reason) is a letter to Gunner magazine (monthly) and see what responses it gets. Deadline for August issue is past.

[pjjobson]

Nigel

A very good idea, I will fire one off to the editor tonight.

Phil

[Pete1052]

Nigel, we used irregularly shaped safety boxes when firing at the Grafenwoehr training area in Bavaria in '78 to '81. The facility was run by the U.S. Army and not the Budeswehr. Perhaps those white stripes on the ballistic shields were to make it easier to find the guns when looking through a survey instrument while laying the battery for direction.

[nigelfe]

Nigel, we used irregularly shaped safety boxes when firing at the Grafenwoehr training area in Bavaria in '78 to '81. The facility was run by the U.S. Army and not the Budeswehr. Perhaps those white stripes on the ballistic shields were to make it easier to find the guns when looking through a survey instrument while laying the battery for direction.

H'mm I used Graf and Baumholder about then (both designated NATO ranges), and with a novel piece of equipment, the LRF (we had to invent a safety trace), and had to deal with Kommandatur, not an American in sight. IIRC there was another German safety procedure as well, all carts had to be reduced to the safe one and checked before firing started from a position. However, the German safety regs did keep tightening so my timeline might be awry.

It would be unusual for the director (aiming circle) to be in front of the guns (particularly towed ones with a shield), prefered position was left rear, although it doesn't really matter with SPs. My suspicion its one of those things without ryme or reason, but perhaps it was to act as a rear light in the horse age, trouble with that idea it would make more sense on the left side of the shield because that was the side the driver (behind) was on, stretching imagination, perhaps it changed to the right when vehicles replaced horse and the driver was on the right. Seems a bit far fetched!

[pjjobson]

Well, I e-mailed my question to The Gunner magazine last night, and got the reply today, hows that for service!!

According to the Royal School of Artillery the white stripe marks the sights behind the shield. (when passing line it marks the dial sight).

Hope thaqt helps make things a bit clearer.

Regards

Phil

[Fat Frank]

Here is the answer I got this morning. I am not sure who gave the answer as it came via a mate. I will find out and give them the proper credit once I have it.

The answer to your question about the white line down the face of the shield on the 13-pr is that it identified where the dialsight lay behind the shield and was necessary when passing line to the guns on coming into action. You may recall that the top of the shield on the 25-pr had a 'flap' that could be lowered, allowing the head of the dialsight to be seen: it was raised once the gun was in action. There was no such flap on the 13-pr shield, as you can see, so the director (used for passing line) had to lay on the white stripe.

Bear in mind that the 13-pr and 18-pr were the first guns to have shields in the Royal Artillery - before that, no shields were thought necessary. When the British met the Boers in South Africa, they came against long distance rifle fire and it became clear that they needed better protection - hence the shields and hence the problem in passing line - they didn't think the problem right through!

it is very much in line with the answer Op-Ack gave last night.

I will go and check this physically on the gun when I get a chance.

[Rich QDG]

No sign of the white line on this one,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:QF13pou...October1918.jpg

Just a thought, could it be some peacetime convoy marker usefull at night only, a simmilar convoy setup is still in use today but with a very dim light, personaly I can see no other use for it, all sighting done from the rear of the shield.

[Fat Frank]

The answer I posted above was offered by Brigadier Ken Timbers of the Royal Artillery - former head of the RA Museum at the Rotunda. We thank him for this.

[Pete1052]

It would be unusual for the director (aiming circle) to be in front of the guns (particularly towed ones with a shield), prefered position was left rear, although it doesn't really matter with SPs.

We used to lay the guns with the aiming circle set up to the front of the battery, usually on a diagonal angle to one of the flanks. That was with 175 mm and 8-inch self-propelled pieces. As lieutenants when we were first taught how to measure angles with the aiming circle at Fort Sill we sighted on old British towed heavy pieces from the Great War. The guns were permanently placed in a battery-type line formation and we students set up the aiming circles in front of the guns. I vaguely recall that the caliber of those old pieces was measured in inches and that they had a kind of distinctive reinforcing band at the end of the muzzle.

[MikB]

The answer I posted above was offered by Brigadier Ken Timbers of the Royal Artillery - former head of the RA Museum at the Rotunda. We thank him for this.

Indeed so. But some of us are in the dark about what the 'Passing Line' process or procedure might be, and would like to know why the position of the dial sight needs to be accurately known.

It's like that notion of the 5 levels of 'why?' - each answer opens a further question...

Regards,

MikB

[Pete1052]

If I understand the British expression of "passing line" correctly it describes the process of laying the guns on the desired azimuth (or direction) of fire. An officer or NCO usually uses a tripod-mounted survey instrument called a director (an aiming circle in the U.S.) to do this. The process is also known as reciprocal laying.

(Edited 23 July 4:22 AM Eastern U.S. time)

[Rich QDG]

As I understand it the 13 pdr is a relativly short range direct fire gun used by the RHA to keep up with the cavalry mainly used in the direct fire role, why would anyone need to be between the enemy and the gun shield.

[Pete1052]

Nigel, a question. Is this your website on the British artillery during World War II?

[Rich QDG]

Will not even persue that link any further, full of Castlemedia popups, Spyware ???

[nigelfe]

My BS detectors have just gone off. Larkhill is throwing a blind guess. I think the white line is on a par with whitewashing rocks around the parade ground and go faster stripes on cars. I can't remember ever seeing it in pics from WW1, on inter war pics or in WW2, and I've just done a quick check. I don't remember seeing it in the 'official portraits' in the gun handbooks either.

I'm also fairly sure that a 13 pr dial sight head was above the shield, given that the director was at most about 120 yds from the furthest gun and had x4 or so magnification and you had to pass an eye test to get into the army why on earth would a white line on the shield be needed? (at night you held a torch just above the sight) The director was pointed at the sight cowl and the layer at the gun pointed back at the director. If you could see the gun thru the director you could see the sight.

There was only very rarely a need to put a director in front of the guns, if you had the guns tucked in along a treeline then the director was forward but to a flank (the side that the dial sight was on). Having had some experience with M110 (and towed) if you put the director directly in front of the battery then you will probably be unable to see the sights on half the guns because the barrel and/or equilibrators would be in the way! Also sticking the director out in front was not a good idea for concealment due to the possibility of passing unfriendly airmen.

It's also worth noting that UK gunners, particularly at the lighter end, were somewhat reluctant users of directors in WW1 and afterwards. Their preferred method of orientation was an aiming point because it was much faster for the battery as a whole.

[pjjobson]

Checked the answer yesterday with Ken Timbers personally, he is adament that is what the white line is/was for.

Having said that, I have to agree, I have never seen it used "in action".

My personal feeling is, this is one of those questions were there are a hundred and one answers all with an answer and none of them are one hundred per cent correct. It's a bit like asking why the recuperator has a rope wound around it and why is it painted white. No two gunners will give you the same answer.

[squirrel]

Nigelfe,

Uncle was a gunner on 18 pdrs WW1, dad was a gunner (TA) on 18 pdrs 1930's.

Both mentioned the use of aiming points when siting and laying guns. Still reckon the white stripe, white rope coiled around recuperator and white rope on the shield are "bull" items although the rope around the recuperator could possibly act as insulation to stop it cooling too quickly.

[nigelfe]

I found a pic from the front of the gun carriage used for King George 5 funeral 1935, 13 pr manned by F Bty RHA. No white line. It would be interesting to work back thru pics and see when the white line first appeared. I'll bet it was long after 13 pr left field service!

[Fat Frank]

Far be it from me to argue with guys like Ken. I will put a white line on my gun(s) FULL STOP

We have asked the question of the OC Kings Troop and are awaiting her comments.

[pjjobson]

As a further comment to this, the white line isn't exactly "tactical" is it, I can't argue with Ken, (he outranks me considerably!!), and he is an acknowledged expert on the Royal Artillery.

However, my personal feeling is, if it is/was used to indicate the position of the sight, then this could only realistically happen in training.

And like everyone else, I've never seen an "in action" picture with a white line painted on, although I have seen AS90 with similar lines (but only on training ranges).

[nigelfe]

As a further comment to this, the white line isn't exactly "tactical" is it, I can't argue with Ken, (he outranks me considerably!!), and he is an acknowledged expert on the Royal Artillery.

However, my personal feeling is, if it is/was used to indicate the position of the sight, then this could only realistically happen in training.

And like everyone else, I've never seen an "in action" picture with a white line painted on, although I have seen AS90 with similar lines (but only on training ranges).

I can't see any training value in painting a white line on the front of the shield of a towed gun (never mind battlefield value!). As previously discussed various white marks on SP turrets were connected with peacetime safety (actually you could argue that a mark in the centre of the turret rear would also help a section commander if he used a compass for gross error checks, but that's really clutching at straws).

[Fat Frank]

It may well be that the line on the RHA gun is for saftey during firing in the park?

[nigelfe]

Can't imagine how. They fire blank. The only difficult bit is coming into action and getting all the guns pointing in the same direction so that they appear parallel, no role for a white line, I assume they use an aiming point on the horizon.

[pjjobson]

I've certainly never seen them use any form of director. There marker numbers are already deployed when the Troop gallops "into action", then they line up and fire by order.

So the white line would appear redundant in a safety role, as Nigel says. I am beginning to suspect that it has been applied because it looks effective and that there is no reason for the Troop to have the line at all.

I know that sounds like I am doing a reversal of my previous posts, but as has been mentioned by other members above, I have also been looking at my phot archive and I can't find a single 13 or 18 Pounder with a white stripe (other than those belonging to King's Troop.

Phil

[cahoehler]

And the red thingies on this 5.5

Carl