BatterySergeantMajor Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 What insignia did the battalion's pipers and drummers wear? Does anyone has pictures of these insignia? I assume there was a pipe major and a drum major on battalion level? Very likely these were both sergeants? Was there a seniority amongst those two? If the other pipers and drummers had a rank, this would probably have nothing to do with their function as piper or drummer but rather with "normal" promotion? I mean, you could have as well have 4 corporals as none ? Thanks Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Felstead Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 Speaking from memory Drummers/pipers/buglers/trumpeters/musicians had a badge sewn on the upper right arm. A badge of a side drum/bugle etc. Drum Major/Pipe Major is an appointment. I believe the rank of the gentleman would normally be that of a Sergeant or Warrant Officer. They are equal in rank (for band purposes) but usually on parade the Drum Major would give the words of Command from his position at the head. The rank of a drummer could be anything from Pte to W.O. It is a specialisation and not a rank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 Quote: Speaking from memory Drummers/pipers/buglers/trumpeters/musicians had a badge sewn on the upper right arm. A badge of a side drum/bugle etc. Drum Major/Pipe Major is an appointment. I believe the rank of the gentleman would normally be that of a Sergeant or Warrant Officer. They are equal in rank (for band purposes) but usually on parade the Drum Major would give the words of Command from his position at the head. The rank of a drummer could be anything from Pte to W.O. It is a specialisation and not a rank Hmmmmm. Where to start! This answer is 1914 1918 only, and excludes Household Division. 'Drummer', 'Bugler' [LI and Rifles and RMLI], 'Trumpeter' [Cavalry, RA, RE] and 'Piper' were appointments for a Private which took him out of the rank and file and paid him 1d more per day. There was no establishment in the Corps of Drums for any NCO other than the Sergeant Drummer, a full sergeant, no more and no less. This did not appear to stop Cpls or LCpls being appointed to the Corps but I suspect they were supernumerary [certainly were in Highland regiments because the established strength of pipers was only 5, but in addition to the 16 drummers]. To have a Cpl and a LCpl in the Drums was handy in case of absence or illness of the Sergeant. The Corps of Drums is nothing, but nothing, to do with the military band. As for badges of appointment, and ignoring full dress [scarlet tunic etc] Drummers had a worsted or brass drum Sgt Drummer 4 chevrons point up, drum above, Bugler a single bugle [some evidence of double bugles for rifles], Trumpeter crossed trumpets, Pipers did not wear a distinctive badge until much later. All the above upper right sleeve except Sgt Dmr, lower right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Saillard Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 I have a First World War photograph of the 42nd Battalion AIF pipe band. The pipers are wearing a distinctive badge depicting a bagpipe. Regards Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 29 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2006 Hmmmmm. Where to start! This answer is 1914 1918 only, and excludes Household Division. 'Drummer', 'Bugler' [LI and Rifles and RMLI], 'Trumpeter' [Cavalry, RA, RE] and 'Piper' were appointments for a Private which took him out of the rank and file and paid him 1d more per day. There was no establishment in the Corps of Drums for any NCO other than the Sergeant Drummer, a full sergeant, no more and no less. This did not appear to stop Cpls or LCpls being appointed to the Corps but I suspect they were supernumerary [certainly were in Highland regiments because the established strength of pipers was only 5, but in addition to the 16 drummers]. To have a Cpl and a LCpl in the Drums was handy in case of absence or illness of the Sergeant. The Corps of Drums is nothing, but nothing, to do with the military band. As for badges of appointment, and ignoring full dress [scarlet tunic etc] Drummers had a worsted or brass drum Sgt Drummer 4 chevrons point up, drum above, Bugler a single bugle [some evidence of double bugles for rifles], Trumpeter crossed trumpets, Pipers did not wear a distinctive badge until much later. All the above upper right sleeve except Sgt Dmr, lower right. Thanks for all these answers, they are very helpful. My interest is Great War service dress only, and specifically Pipes & Drums. Do you know if the insignia were embroidered or metal? I was astonished about 1) The number of drummers in a Battalion. 16, compared to 5 pipers? 2) the wearing of the chevrons. I would have expected three chevrons point down? Was this the same for the Pipe Major (eventually without pipes)? Does anyone have a photo of these badges, if possible combined with the sergeant's rank? Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Saillard Posted 30 November , 2006 Share Posted 30 November , 2006 Hello Erwin ! I assume you will be more interested in British pipe bands. However, here is the First World War photograph mentioned in post #4, depicting the pipe band of the 42nd Battalion, Australian Imperial Force. The band, as shown, was composed of 7 pipers, 1 base drum and 2 drummers. The other person is probably the drum major. As you can see, they are wearing the normal service dress issued to Australian infantry. Some of the tunics in this photo are adorned with band insignia. Those on the pipers appear to be woven. Regards Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 30 November , 2006 Share Posted 30 November , 2006 Thanks for all these answers, they are very helpful. My interest is Great War service dress only, and specifically Pipes & Drums. Do you know if the insignia were embroidered or metal? I was astonished about 1) The number of drummers in a Battalion. 16, compared to 5 pipers? 2) the wearing of the chevrons. I would have expected three chevrons point down? Was this the same for the Pipe Major (eventually without pipes)? Does anyone have a photo of these badges, if possible combined with the sergeant's rank? Erwin Drum Major [more properly Sgt Dmr] was always dressed and badged above his rank as was the Pipe Major. Both wore the chevrons of First Class Staff Sergeant [Quartermaster Sergeant] but were never higher in status than second class. As for 'pipes' badges, hard evidence of use before WW II would be most welcome. Even Australian!!!! And the OFFICIAL number of pipers was indeed only five ..... don't want the Jocks to get too uppity, old boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Saillard Posted 30 November , 2006 Share Posted 30 November , 2006 Hello Grumpy ! I am afraid I do not work miracles - I only expect them !!! Here is a close up of the badge visible on the right arm of the first piper, back row. As you can see, there appears to be a UN-style wreath around it. There are a couple more pipers with this badge, but until I dig out the original (if required) and try to scan at 1200 dpi, this is the best I can do for now. Hope this is of some help. Regards, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Saillard Posted 30 November , 2006 Share Posted 30 November , 2006 Back again ! Thought you might like to see this crop of the right arm of the second man sitting from the left. As you can see, there is what appears to be a pipers badge mounted just above a drummers badge. As they say - two are better than one. Regards Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 30 November , 2006 Share Posted 30 November , 2006 Superb! This is the only known evidence anywhere ...... when Denis Edwards and I wrote our badge book, and since, we have not a sniff earlier than c. 1940. This from our book: A high quality scan of the AIF badges would be much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Saillard Posted 30 November , 2006 Share Posted 30 November , 2006 Grumpy, I am somewhat stunned by your comments to say the least and very happy to have been of some small assistance to your research. The photograph is on a postcard backing - so the high resolution scan of the badges may be a bit difficult to procure due to the small size in relation to the rest of the photo. However, please have patience with me and I will see what I can do. As mentioned above, I do not work miracles - I only expect them ! Regards Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 30 November , 2006 Share Posted 30 November , 2006 Superb indeed. Once again this Forum excels. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 1 December , 2006 Share Posted 1 December , 2006 Can I please slightly highjack this Thread to answer a question but also ask one, Erwin-My Father served as a Drummer in the 5th (Volunteer Battalion) Royal Scots between 1917 and 1919.He never saw action but in his reference to support his application to join the Police Service post-War his rank is stated as Private. Now the frustrating bit and the question. Unfortunately I cannot post Photos on the Forum(but will gladly reprint,if required).In an early photo I can discern the "drummer" Badge on his right arm. However,on a later photo he is wearing an indistinct Badge on his left arm.I initially took this to be a "drummer" Badge but this may not be the case. In an early photo of my Father in Police Uniform,circa 1919. he is wearing a indistinct Badge on his left arm.A Group photo of the Constabulary taken at the same time states "some men are wearing a first aid proficiency Badge". Is it possible,therefore,that the Badge my Father is wearing on his left arm in the Royal Scots photo is a First Aid Badge? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 1 December , 2006 Share Posted 1 December , 2006 For George: Here are some pics of the badges relating to George's father in the 5th (Volunteer Battalion) Royal Scots (George, sorry for the removal of the head - I had to lighten the image up to show the badge on the right arm and it didn't do justice to your father). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 1 December , 2006 Share Posted 1 December , 2006 Stuart, Thank you and not a problem George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Saillard Posted 1 December , 2006 Share Posted 1 December , 2006 Grumpy, I am VERY sorry, but my attempts to enlarge the badges further only resulted in a blur. What I did was make a 1200dpi scan of the photograph - and then another 1200dpi scan of that. So I am afraid what we have in posts #8 and #9 is the best on offer. However, if you can guarantee that I will be given acknowledgement for the photo (should you want to use it) in the next edition of your book, then I will be only too happy to email a high resolution scan to you direct. I am truly sorry I cannot do any better than that. Hope this will be of some use to your research, Regards Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 December , 2006 Share Posted 1 December , 2006 Replied by PM and very many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 2 December , 2006 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2006 Thanks to all. Again this is very useful information Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 7 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2007 I'll have to come back to this because I couldn't find anywhere a photo of a pipe major/ drum major with four chevrons point up. Sure this is correct (for the Great War period)? I would rather expect three chevrons point down with a crown (equivalent colour sergeant)? Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer Posted 7 February , 2007 Share Posted 7 February , 2007 Erwin... I hope this goes through...here is a drummer sergeant from pre-war days (1912) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 7 February , 2007 Share Posted 7 February , 2007 Erwin, Officially there were 6 pipers in the Pipe Band, including the Pipe Major. The remainder came from the rifle companies (black economy). In accordance with clothing Regulations 1914, page 114, Table IX: The Pipe Major (Sergeant Piper) wore a 4 bar chevron - This would be point upwards, and no badge worn above it. Nor did the pipers have a badge in 1914. The Drum Major (Sergeant Drummer) wore a 4 bar chevron, again point up, with a drum above it. Drummers wore a drum. The Pipe Major albeit would be a SSgt equivalent, was also an appointment. Therefore, a senior Sergeant could be the Pipe Major, by appointment, but not rank. The titles: Sergeant Piper and Sergeant Drummer were seldom ever used, if at all, in Scottish Regiments unless it was on a return or report. Hope this helps Aye Tom McC PS - Here is a picture of Pipe Major Angus McLeod 3/4 Black Watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 7 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2007 Many thanks. An attempt for a synhesis: A Pipe Major was a Staff Sergeant, which is an appointment and no real rank. This means that the 4 chevrons are a combination of a rank and an appointment. 4 chevrons would be worn on the lower sleeve, 3 on the upper sleeve. Staff sergeant is an appointment for a sergeant but colour sergeant is the real next higher rank, is this correct? So Color sergeants are probably allways senior to staff sergeants? Thanks Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 7 February , 2007 Share Posted 7 February , 2007 Erwin, Usually the Pipe Major would be a SSgt by Rank and hold this appointment. However, there were times when a Sergeant held the appointment as the Pipe Major. He would still rank as a Sgt, and wear Sgts' chevrons. 4 chevrons, point up, is the equivalent rank of a SSgt. It is just a different appointment. In 1914 the CSM and CQMS would both be SSgt equivalents, however, the CSM wore three stripes and a crown and the CQMS wore 4 stripes point up. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 8 February , 2007 Share Posted 8 February , 2007 Tom, sorry, no. Up to 1915 [when WO II was brought into use] the new [1913] appointments of CSM and CQMS were both held by CSgts and both wore three chevrons point down and crown above. The CSM was senior and paid a little more. A plain 4 chevron point up was worn by the QMSgt in charge of the battalion office, often called Battalion Clerk. Also, in some regiments [like SG] the unadorned 4 chevrons worn by Pipe Major cum Sgt Piper. Sgt Drummers and Sgt Pipers [unofficially drum major and pipe major] were substantive sergeants only [the modern practice is different, in that the appointments may now be held by Sgt, CSgt or WO II] but dressed and badged distinctively, well above their pay grade. Dawnay says the 'music' majors were reduced from SSgt 2nd class status c. 1881 to sergeant, and their titles changed accordingly. The old titles were restored in 1928. Regarding CSgts and Staff Sgts: a minefield, but the term SSgt not used by line infantry in our period. The main visual difference is that only infantry SNCOs are entitled to wear the sash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 8 February , 2007 Share Posted 8 February , 2007 Grumpy I stand corrected I should have checked the relevant King's Reg for the period. The Pipey would be a Sergeant equivalent 1914 with 4 bar chevron. Here is KRs: Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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