Somme gives up the body of another Anzac

[Piorun]

Yes. And like a dog with a bone, you have chewed all the good meat off your argument and are now just kicking the dead bone round and round and round to no purpose other than, apparently, the noise it makes. Antony

[Seadog]

Thanks

Norman

[Blackblue]

Come in Pot...this is Kettle...over....

Very valid point I would have thought...simply another point of view....which don't recall seeing recorded thus far. Lets just accept that each of us has differing views and opinions.

I am going to start another thread so we can record updates on progress of the find....without the rest of this stuff.

Tim

[Piorun]

Hi, Blackblue. Tried to pm you. I think if you read the whole of this thread, you'll see how I had bowed out some 100 posts earlier because it appeared that one or two subscribers just kept making innuendo against the motives of those who have no voice here. The point made in #202 has been made before and, while philosophically valid, many, many posts have counselled dealing with today's realities, rather than continuing to believe that "the French" will be forever grateful. Some will. It's possible that the majority don't even know what we're talking about. It appeared to me that seadog is quick to oppose everyone else's comments and just keeps coming back to his philosophical views regardless. We know he holds them. They don't advance the argument for practical protocols (as some Australian Pals have noted). I'm disappointed that you considered my earlier posts in the same light. We will not change the philosophical outlook of the rural French or the group of more-urban French who profit from the souvenir trade - especially if we cast aspersions like seeds in the Spring. I had retired from the thread in frustration and anger but I just "lost it" when I saw his latest negation of yet another more realistic view. As I said ages ago - our young men fought and died for their freedom - but it is their freedom and they can do with it what they will. However much I resent and deny your analogy and comparison, I must thank you for reminding me that I shouldn't have come back to it.

By the way; I have family in Brisbane and hope that you, like they, have survived the floods and are getiing back to normality. Our nephew's garden was piled high with neighbours' belongings. Yours, Antony

[dfaulder]

Good idea to copy in the Mayor/ess. Instead of cluttering up this thread why not start another in which ideas can be posted and a complete list made of the ideal way in which future finds will be dealt with. I will have to leave it with you as there is only 5 1/2 hours before my alarm goes off.

Thank you

Done

David

[Blackblue]

No offence meant Antony,

You have figured heavily in this thread in posts as well as content. All I see is differing points of view....people have every right to express them as others have every right to disagree. But I don't see disparaging analogies or remarks, simply because people don't agree with the thrust of their argument, as constructive. This case was a response directly to someone who recently joined the thread with an opinion and Norman simply responded to him!

I agree with him.....many many people, particularly those whose families continue to benefit most from the sacrifice of the fallen (the local people), possesses a moral responsibility to see these men have the best possible chance of being named when they are found. Its been clear throughout this thread that some do what most see as morally and legally right...and some don't. I agree...as do many others....that things have to change.

Rgds

Tim

PS. Thanks for asking. My properties fine as not in the flood effected area and living in Canberra at the moment. Unfortunately I have a few friends who lost everything...and then there is the Insurance companies...but thats a whole other story!

[Piorun]

Absolutely, agree, Tim. However, possessing a moral responsibility and shouldering it are two different things. Hence the frustration created by not moving past that reality. I thank you for the new thread and hope that the end result will be a structure and an educational protocol that can help the people, young and old, private and commercial, in the affected areas of France and Flanders to generate or renew their interest in their heritage of freedom and also help them deal with the often costly and emotional upheaval to their lives that finding the fallen can cause them on a daily basis. Kind regards, Antony

[mca07100]

At the end of the day you can make as many proposals as you like and it will all come down to what the French think , and you have a conga line starting from the farmer upwards, whilst you are doing this make sure you have practicality built into it, make sure the farmer or landholder is compensated ,for loss of income etc I am sure if some one dug up your back yard/Farm you would want it,!! And most of all consider if you are not French, that it is not your country, and you cannot go in Gung Ho and tell people what to do, wars have been started for less . The times I have spent in Belgium and France of which I have been a few times , I am astounded at the French and Belgiums respect of our war dead , The French hold ceremonies for Anzac day every year ,and at the Menin gate in Ieper they march every night and play the last post . I feel that these two countries are for ever grateful------ In Memory of 2nd Lt Simon Fraser KIA Bullecourt 11th May --no known grave

Thanks for thinking about Queensland floods Antony, the loss of life was the worst part, We also had them down in Victoria where I come from, My Daughter is a police Sgt in Brisbane and although her house was safe, the lives lost ,really got to her , especially the children that died

Done

David

[remy_of_62]

Hello,

I am french and can give you my point of view: I don't think there is nothing to do with Catholic or not, with law or not, with money to pay for an archaeological survey or not!

The problem is just that here in France there are not a lot of people than can be heard to say: "these are the bones of an heroe!", i am a french student of 20, and i feel angry and sad by the way we use to deal with the bodies of both war we found, even French bodeis than English or Australian or every others! There is no respect, no one cares, and just because nobody have the job to do it, it is not like England, there is no CWGC in France and nothing looking like that. The people don t care if they find a body, and authorities don t look very involved in this, they never try to identify the bodies (for french ones), like you or australians do, they put the body somewhere in a military cemetry and it is ok, you can ask 'I want to be there when the body will be burried, you can ask all authorities for that, no one will answer you and tell you when and where!

It is a shame, just a problem of organisation and of money! Maybe also a question of volition! But i can tell you something not all french people think that and a lot that can 't be heard think it is a shame for our country to deal like that with the heroes from France, England, Austalie and all place in the world!

Rémy

[Piorun]

Merci, Remy. So many of us share your feelings and you do us all a great credit when you honour our commitment to our dead - and yours. However, it is your country and your people must do what they think, democratically, is best. Perhaps, with more young French people like you, things will change. God bless, Antony.

[Seadog]

Remy, your comments are well made and they have the benefit of coming from one who actually lives in the country concerned. There will of course be many of your countrymen who show respect and dignity to the remains of the fallen whether they be WW1 or WW2, although unfortunately and according to various comments made on this forum there will also be those who attitude is completely the opposite. There is certainly in my opinion a credibility gap existing in France with the custom and practice relating to the current finding and treatment of soldiers human remains which needs to be addressed so that proper confidence and credibility is restored.

Regards

Norman

[remy_of_62]

Hi,

In fact it is a big problem, and I can't answer and know why the authorities are not very involved in that sort of things. In fact, they are when they want, for example a lot of cemeteries will be cleaned and renoved for the 100th century of WWI, but it is because it will be a big occasion, medias will be interested in that, and I am shure that if we find a soldier body in 2014 or 2018, evryone (politics, medias and population) will be involved, that is not very fare for all the others that gave their lifes in the past for us, but as you say not all french are like that and I think a majority will agree with me, the problem is that they do not know about that because nobody talk about that! If I know that subject for example, it is because I am a student in history and I am very interested in WWI and II, and I go on forums like this one, people who do not do, will never heard about soldiers bodies found! That is the problem.

Thanks,

Rémy

[Seadog]

Remy I most certainly agree with you about the fact that people do not know about the finding of the soldiers. I can only speak about what happens here in the UK which in regard of the discoveries was basically that nothing was reported in our media and to the general public it is as though these men never existed. It is the responsibility of the UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) to issue press notices about the finds but they for some reason do not. In the case of the CWGC although the remains are initially within their care they absolve themselves from any responsibility for making this known to the British public. I do believe that in the case of the MOD this is a deliberate policy in order that the level of investigation including DNA matching that happened at Fromelles is NOT repeated in the future.

I add two photos to illustrate my point. Both are of the burials of British soldiers whose remains were found in France in the year 2009. The first is that of the interment of the remains of one unidentified British soldier of the Great War which took place at Méaulte Citadel New Military Cemetery on the Somme, France on the 14th October 2009 and who was originally found near Méaulte. The second is of Interment of the remains of two unidentified British soldiers of the Great War which took place at Flatiron Copse War Cemetery on the Somme, France also on the 14th October 2009. These remains were found near the village of Contalmaison. In both cases no media report was forthcoming in the UK and the photos were kindly supplied by the CWGC after I inquired as to the two interments.

Regards

Norman

[remy_of_62]

Hi,

Thanks for the answer and "happy" or in fact sad to see it is also the case in your country. Even if its not the national, it can be the local news that can report that, but it is a little square on one page on the newspaper, when it is in it!

Friendly

Rémy

[dfaulder]

Remy I most certainly agree with you about the fact that people do not know about the finding of the soldiers. I can only speak about what happens here in the UK which in regard of the discoveries was basically that nothing was reported in our media and to the general public it is as though these men never existed. It is the responsibility of the UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) to issue press notices about the finds but they for some reason do not. In the case of the CWGC although the remains are initially within their care they absolve themselves from any responsibility for making this known to the British public. I do believe that in the case of the MOD this is a deliberate policy in order that the level of investigation including DNA matching that happened at Fromelles is NOT repeated in the future.

Norman,

I hope shortly to report on the General Thread on this issue (Recovery of Found Remains) on how I understand the CWGC / MOD interface works, but I am awaiting a bit more clarification from CWGC (we have been having an exchange every few days).

The area is muddied because of the CWGC's twin roles. (1) It is responsible for the cemeteries and memorials - by charter. (2) Because it is "on the ground" it also provides services to the MODs (usually UK, but can be other Comonwealth MODs, or even occcasionally other MODs) - by agreement between the parties. These services include the exhumation officer and provision of a mortuary.

Finds are reported to the police and, when identified as War Remains, to the relevant Defence Attaché and hence to the relevant MOD who seem to me to be responsible for everything until the body is in the ground. To expect the CWGC to take responsibility for announcing finds (or funerals) is, I think, a little equivalent to expecting a hospital mortuary (or a grave digger) to announce deaths.

Announcement of finds is therefore, I suspect, the responsibility of either the local police (who once they have identified them as War Remains and not subject to a civilian crime investigation, probably have no interest or need to proactively make any announcement), or the relevant MOD. If the local media covered the story either as a result of a local police announcement or normal "news-hounding", but this is not then picked up by our (e.g. the UK) national media (or media local to where the soldier concerned came from), that is then an issue about what those media deem "news-worthy". (Separate debate about "our" media)

My suspicions are growing that it is the "relevant MODs" (naturally secretive organisations) which are the sticking point. With modern day casualties, they try to avoid an announcement until "families have been informed" and I suspect this culture permeates the Historic Cases function as well. They may also argue that if they made an announcement, they might get flooded with queries from every family who lost someone on that front. A slight exaggeration, but given that I suspect the majority of people who have relatives with no known grave know relatively little about the circumstances of the death, there is a possibility that there may be an inconvenient number of irrelevant inquiries.

In some cases identification may be possible from artefacts found with the body which means they can wait until "families are informed". (I find it unthinkable that they would identify someone and then bury them without making good attempts to trace their family.) However, this is becoming decreasingly possible due to the effects of time (destroying uniforms, scattering artefacts etc.), so if an identification is to be made it has to be via DNA testing which means they have to find potential relatives prior to identification. Either the MOD is going to have to do extensive genealogical research and/or it has to publicise the find and ask potential relatives to come forward. If it does the latter, it needs to have a way to handle the resultant responses to filter out the "unlikelys" and process samples from the probables/likelys. And this means COST.

There I suspect lies the problem.

David

(cross-posted to Recovery of Found Remains)

[willy]

Norman,

In some cases identification may be possible from artefacts found with the body which means they can wait until "families are informed". (I find it unthinkable that they would identify someone and then bury them without making good attempts to trace their family.) However, this is becoming decreasingly possible due to the effects of time (destroying uniforms, scattering artefacts etc.), so if an identification is to be made it has to be via DNA testing which means they have to find potential relatives prior to identification. Either the MOD is going to have to do extensive genealogical research and/or it has to publicise the find and ask potential relatives to come forward. If it does the latter, it needs to have a way to handle the resultant responses to filter out the "unlikelys" and process samples from the probables/likelys. And this means COST.

There I suspect lies the problem.

)

DNA as a means of ID, is only part of the process and usually if used the last, primary are any items found with remains. Without a worldwide DNA database, never going to happen, once you have collected the DNA from the remains, what do you try to match /reference it to?

It's not just down to cost.

[Seadog]

David (Post 217) your post is well considered and the points that you make are very relevant to the current situation. We cannot effect the outcome of something that happened almost 100 years ago but we can petition and fight for the authorities to understand that the treatment of the found remains of our soldiers deserve both respect and the implementation of the latest archeological techniques in an attempt to give the dignity of a name to those who after all this time emerge from the mud of the battlefields.

I sincerely believe that the CWGC with its well deserved reputation has not responded to the modern times and a reassessment of its role is long overdue. If I may just one example will suffice, why is the CWGC spending money and effort on such things as their “Histories” in which they spend a inordinate amount of time and no doubt money in including on their web site a so-called collaboration between themselves and the IWM to publish the history of such battles as the Somme etc, I would contend that such an activity is not commiserate with the main purpose of the CWGC in caring for and commemorating the dead of Britain and the Commonwealth.

Much effort is spent in this particular function and yet the CWGC do not see that they have a responsibility in recording and publicizing the annual discoveries of the remains of the soldiers. I think that both they and the MOD have little understanding of the long shadow that the Great War has cast over the people of our islands and the impact that even now that war has on the national psyche.

Regards

Norman

[ph0ebus]

Norman,

Thanks for posting those photos. While it is good to see those fellows home at last, it is saddening to see that almost no one turned out for their services, which of course is linked to the utter lack of publicity. I would have thought they would have at least notified the local equivalent of what they call here in the US the VFW post. A real shame that they did not even do that, apparently.

-Daniel

[dfaulder]

Norman,

Thanks for posting those photos. While it is good to see those fellows home at last, it is saddening to see that almost no one turned out for their services, which of course is linked to the utter lack of publicity. I would have thought they would have at least notified the local equivalent of what they call here in the US the VFW post. A real shame that they did not even do that, apparently.

-Daniel

It is very sad seeing a burial attended by a cleryman and a couple of "functionaries" - too close to a local authority pauper's funeral.

I think the MOD is missing a trick here.

• Publishing a "public invitation" on the local "parish notice board" will help reinforce local feeling for these men (and discourage the potential development of local disrespect for cemeteries and memorials - we can recall such incidents in Britain)
• Specifically inviting the local school to attend - surely a valuable part of "living history"
• Publishing a "public invitation" at the local "major site" (Thiepval, Ploegsteert, Tyne Cot, Menin Gate, Arras memorial etc. and possibly places like the IFF Museum etc.), so that visitors have the option to attend. Provided the immediate burial area is roped off most cemeteries could handle a fair number of attendees.

Perhaps this is another example of the problems with the MOD / CWGC interface. The above address interests of the CWGC but not directly those of the MOD.

(I have answered Normans last post on the parallel thread that tries to think through the general issues.)

David

[leighc]

Very sad indeed. Not exactly what the layman would consider "full military honours" with just the duty padre and Defence Attache or his rep.

It is very sad seeing a burial attended by a cleryman and a couple of "functionaries" - too close to a local authority pauper's funeral.

I think the MOD is missing a trick here.

• Publishing a "public invitation" on the local "parish notice board" will help reinforce local feeling for these men (and discourage the potential development of local disrespect for cemeteries and memorials - we can recall such incidents in Britain)
• Specifically inviting the local school to attend - surely a valuable part of "living history"
• Publishing a "public invitation" at the local "major site" (Thiepval, Ploegsteert, Tyne Cot, Menin Gate, Arras memorial etc. and possibly places like the IFF Museum etc.), so that visitors have the option to attend. Provided the immediate burial area is roped off most cemeteries could handle a fair number of attendees.

Perhaps this is another example of the problems with the MOD / CWGC interface. The above address interests of the CWGC but not directly those of the MOD.

(I have answered Normans last post on the parallel thread that tries to think through the general issues.)

David

[willy]

Very sad indeed. Not exactly what the layman would consider "full military honours" with just the duty padre and Defence Attache or his rep.

So who is expected to attend an unknown then?.

[Piorun]

Honour Guard, Colour Party, Bugler, Piper, RBL, Maire, etc., etc. - any or all - depending on how much is known about the unknown. The remains won't decay, they can be held until such time as those representatives might be economically and practically gathered together (e.g., July 1st, November 11th, etc.). Takes some paperwork and logistics; surely not beyond the capabilities of today's civilian or military authorities. Antony

[Seadog]

I have posted a further photo of the burials made on 14th October 2009 this time of six British soldiers on the other thread to save any confusion with the original topic of this thread. I will put any further posts on the general subject of the discovery of the fallen there.

GWF Topic

Best regards

Norman

[leighc]

I'd assume an unknown burial would be attended by CWGC officials but surely a bit of advance publicity would result in a turnout at the burial worthy of the occasion.

So who is expected to attend an unknown then?.

[willy]

I'd assume an unknown burial would be attended by CWGC officials but surely a bit of advance publicity would result in a turnout at the burial worthy of the occasion.

So an unknown british soldier is found, it's publicised in the uk press, how many people in the uk are going to say,"i must travel to the burial".