geraint Posted 9 April , 2008 Share Posted 9 April , 2008 Living within 15 miles of Kinmel Camp (massive FWW training camp and site of Canadian Riots- many threads on GWF) I heard that Denbighshire CC Planning had been involved there as the MoD are disposing of the site. I now understand that the remaining areas have been sold to major manufacturers and the place will be developed into an industrial park. At the moment, the area sold has about twenty FWW huts, training grounds and FWW practice trenches. I also understand that the Clwyd Powys Archaeological Trust has conducted digs there recently to safeguard information before the sale is completed. I contacted the site, contacted MoD, and was told that they would have no objection for me to make an accompanied visit to those areas. Knowing that many Forum members have an intense interest in the site, I persuaded them to agreed that FIVE members could be accomodated on this visit. I am also told that they will provide original documentation and maps for the original camp in 1915, and that photography would be allowed. The time permitted is 2-3 hours. This is probably the last time that such a visit to the remaining FWW areas can be made, and I am extremely emotional that such a visit is allowed (two great uncles built the place in 1915 as members of the 9th NW Pals RWF). The tentetive first date is Friday 16th May at noon. Any Pals with an interest in accompanying me - please contact me. I know of at least one with an intense interest in Kinmel, and would like to offer him an opportunity - otherwise it's an open field! I would be more than happy to then report back to the Forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 9 April , 2008 Share Posted 9 April , 2008 I'd like to display any suitable photos, maps etc on the Long, Long Trail if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 9 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2008 Certainly Chris. An honorable depository for the vestiges of Kinmel Geraint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 9 April , 2008 Share Posted 9 April , 2008 Geraint, Thanks for tipping me off to this. I would, of course, be very interested, but unfortunately there's no way I could do it at noon on the 16th. Being a teacher has many advantages with holidays and the like, but one drawback is that there's zero chance of getting time off during term time. Unless I was ill of course..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 9 April , 2008 Share Posted 9 April , 2008 Geraint I would like to be included please. I'm around 20 mins away. Hywyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWRCo Posted 10 April , 2008 Share Posted 10 April , 2008 .......has anybody thought about asking the planners/developers about relocating the buildings if possible to museums? That's if it ain't tooo much out of their massive budgets (the planners/developers that is)!! tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 10 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2008 Hywyn - ardderchog. I did speculate with MoD as to whether St Fagan's the National Folk Museum in Cardiff had shown an interest. I do intend to email them with the information. The huts, though have been renovated continually over the years and do contain asbestos, therefore making it a specialist demolition job, and far too costly for an individual with a sledge hammer, jemmy and white van. I had thought of buying one for the garden!(Though I'd have to buy my neighbour's garden to accomodate it!) Geraint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 10 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2008 Quick update Denbighshire CC Planning Committee are meeting on 23 April to discuss "Demolition of existing military barracks at Bodelwyddan Kinmel Camp" Plans are available for inspection on Denbighshire County Council website, planning applications, for which you need to use the code 40/2005/1500 to reach the plans. The written report is not available untill 20 April, and will be on line then. Clwyd Powys archaeological Trust report is "too bulky" to go on line, hard copies are available at Denbighshire Planning Main office, Smithfield Buildings, Denbigh, and "shortly" copies will be made available in all Denbighshire town libraries, and at the County Archives here in Ruthin. I would suggest that Forum members living in Denbighshire contact their County Councillors with a request to discuss this issue prior to 23 April. My feelings are that it would be good to preserve at least one here in Denbighshire, in the vicinity of Bodelwyddan, and that another should go to a museum - either the St Fagan's Folk Museum (who specialise in removing and restoring historic buildings) Cardiff or to the RWF Archives and Museum at Caernarfon Garrison buildings. Maybe the Canadian Government could be interested in one? Shake a leg Canadian Pals! Geraint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mametzwood Posted 10 April , 2008 Share Posted 10 April , 2008 Geraint, Out of interest why have the MOD only given you 2-3 hours to carry out this visit? Seems a very short time for what is a very historic site. SWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 10 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2008 SWB The MoD man accompanying will be coming from Shrewsbury specifically for this, and will be allocating a working halfday in which he will also be involved in his supervisory capacity at Kinmel. He did say that we may well be allowed to wander unaccompanied in specific areas, as we are obviously worthy members and respected pillars of society! What will be interesting reading will be the Clwyd Powys archaeological report, which will have been given far more time to come to an accurate narrative. Geraint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew lucas Posted 18 April , 2008 Share Posted 18 April , 2008 As a former resident of St.asaph, this has always interested me a great deal. I have several news articles from the 70's onwards on this and the fait of some of the huts that survived 1919, a few in St Asaph now gone, one in trefnant still there ect. My next door neighbour, remembers the riots of 1919 well, he used to visit the camp on a regular basis as a kid, and was stationed there for a time in the 20's. I used to visit as a kid myself before the a55 was built and have many happy memories and a few photos of the time in the 80's, even up to the gates in St george, tin town end. If i can count me in! i now live in Brum matthew should sayw as well, went once with the mersyside WFA in the compnay of old contemtable joe armstrong in 1990, quite a visit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
At Home Dad Posted 19 April , 2008 Share Posted 19 April , 2008 Andrew, Surely you get to hear all the latest and best excuses for absence! Use one of them! Kind regards Being a teacher has many advantages with holidays and the like, but one drawback is that there's zero chance of getting time off during term time. Unless I was ill of course..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew lucas Posted 19 April , 2008 Share Posted 19 April , 2008 as it stands at present, i'm taking a school trip to ypres on that date, 16th may, but let me know if any other dates are available thanks matthew lucas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 19 April , 2008 Share Posted 19 April , 2008 Hi Geraint Can't believe i missed this post, have the places been filled? Reason i ask, is that my gt gt uncle was a training NCO at Kinmel and lived at Bodelwyddan. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 20 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2008 At the moment - Hywyn, Neil and myself. Will contact you Matt if there's a date change. No changes to the original date. Suggest we meet up at the Canadian War graves at Bodelwyddan 11.45 on that date, and we can go from there to the main gate. MoD did mention need for names and addresses for ID purposes, so perhaps you could PM me? Will keep you updated. Geraint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 14 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2008 Bringing this thread up to date. Any other member wanting to join us? RSVP Thursday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Bulloch Posted 15 May , 2008 Share Posted 15 May , 2008 Geraint. I only wish I could be with you on this visit. When you met at Bodelwyddan Cemetery could one of you please say a wee hello to David Gillan 58th Nova Scotia Regiment for me, he was from Lanarkshire Scotland befor he immigrated to Canada. Have a safe journey Cheers Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 15 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2008 Rob Will do! One of the five killed in the mutiny. Any relationship to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 15 May , 2008 Share Posted 15 May , 2008 hi Geriant, i shall be there tomorrow. can't wait Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 15 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2008 Hi Neil Everything seems fine. See you by the Canadian graves about 11.45. Regards Geraint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 16 May , 2008 Share Posted 16 May , 2008 Must say i had a brilliant time today at Kinmel Camp. Huge thanks must go to Geriant, with out him this opportunity would never have come about. Bizzarly i had a chance meeting with a chap from Bodelwyddan, who knew of my family, he even owned a photograph of my Gt Gt nan and her two daughters, who were his teachers at school, what a brilliant coincidence What a wonderful day, another example what can be achieved by the forum. I've many many more photo's let me know if you want some Neil 1. The photograph of my family (never before seen) 2. Remaining huts at Kinmel 3. Brick Structure, not sure whats its purpose was. 4. Practice trenches in the grounds of the castle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Bulloch Posted 17 May , 2008 Share Posted 17 May , 2008 Rob Will do! One of the five killed in the mutiny. Any relationship to you? Geraint. No not a relative, one of my Lanarkshire lads that had emigrated to Cape Breton Canada and joined the army in march 1916 survived the war only to die after the war was over. David was on guard duty when he was killed (As far as I know) Thanks Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 17 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2008 Rob Gave your rememberances - and took a photo - will PM it to you (camera not with me at present). Didn't know that he was a recent emigre - but yes you are right regarding his position at Kinmel. He was one of the loyal men guarding the entry to camp 21 on that fateful day. He was shot and killed by the rioters who were only sparsly armed (souvenier weapons). I think he was killed by an unlucky shot. Neil and I had an excellent day at the old camp, Neil's posted some shots, and a more comprehensive report and photos will follow. Regards Geraint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Bulloch Posted 18 May , 2008 Share Posted 18 May , 2008 Geraint. My thanks for that, I am booked to come home in September I have some business in Liverpool and then I am heading up to pay my respects at St Margarets Chapel. I thank you for your thought's, I am sure David heard every word. Thanks again Rob. Ps David's family were all miners and worked the coal fields of PEI, his attesttion papers state he inlisted at his local coal mine, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 19 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2008 Report on visit to Kinmel Camp, May 2008 Both Neil (Shropshire Mad) and myself were allowed to wander at will through the camp areas still retained by MoD and the Army Cadet Service. This constitutes the centeral section of the Southern end of this once massive camp, and retains about twenty barrack cabins dating back to the Great War which are still in situ. Many, if not all are to be demolished in the immediate future for commercial development. The original camp was built in 1914-5 on a massive scale, sweeping from the existing area all the way northwards to the Rhyl coast about four miles away. The Bodelwyddan Castle and village, as well as the hamlet of St George were contained 'within' the camp. The Castle grounds almost up to St Asaph gave the Easterly boundary and contains the First World War trench training areas. Altogether, about five square miles were enclosed by this camp with the existing Castle as HQ buildings, the A55 bisecting it and providing road facilities. The camp was certainly protected to its southerly parts by concrete and wire posts, the remnants of Great War ones still layingnear their original positions, now replaced by steel posts. Given the scale of the camp, it's inconceivable that the whole area was cordoned off. Our supposition is that the upper, southerly area off the A55 which contained HQ and the permenant buildings probably was, whilst the area lying northwards, containing the bell tent arrangements may have been open. Bodelwyddan village itself still contain evidence of the military layout, with street names such as Artillery Row, Fusilier Close still in use. The Marble Church at Bodelwyddan, apart for containing the Canadian Graves (those who died during the March 1919 Mutiny -5; and the forty or so who died in the Flu outbreak of 1919, also contain the graves of other service men and women who died at intermintent times during the war - killed in training, died of wounds etc. The camp still retains the sub camp layout of the original. Ie fields containing the concrete foundations of admin, guardhouse etc buildings, and the level earthworks which on which timber huts were laid. basic concrete and metalling surface of connecting roads are still visible under the turf which gave the main pathways and connecting routes. The Second World War and National Service revamps are also visible, but the Great War originals are easily identified through their location in relationship with the later material, and of their more coarse and robust ingredients. Although not provided on this visit, we were informed that the Archaeological Report will be made available in the immediate future. The existing huts were built of weather clad timber, bunked, to hold about 180 men. Every fourth also appeared to have cookhouse facilities containing the original brick chimneys. Although having been updated over the years, some original features were evident in the window fittings, and basic construction. The practice trench area in the easterly part of the camp is now owned by Castell Bodelwyddan, a tourist centre, hotel and exhibition oriel. The trenches are easilly accesible, and well cared for. They were replicas of those to be expected in France, through which companies spent days being 'acclimatised' by living in them. Photos to follow in next posting Geraint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now