findabetterole Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 Tom.... I have no idea as to what glengarry badge the cadet is wearing.. never seen anything like it before! Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 Tom, Seph and I are referring to the badges in the first post - I feel they are Royal Scots; he believes they are Argyles. What is your opinion? Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 Definately Royal Scots and we already have evidence from a Medal Index Card that one of the brothers did infact serve and die with the R.S., plus as I have already mentioned one is wearing his Imperial Service broach and so would have been in one of the RS(TF) battalions. I suspect that both did infact serve with the RS and that the other brother was transferred to the RE at a later date. The Cadet photo is more difficult to determine as many pre-war Cadet units were "affiliated" only to their local pre-1908 Volunteer or post-1908 T.F. units, and as such could were a badge of their own design. Only units with titles such as "1st Cadet Bn, Blankshires" would wear a badge reflecting the unit to whom they belonged, with somewhere on the badge "Cadet Bn". A lot of schools were also "affiliated" to Volunteer/T.F. units but these came and went as time went on and it's a misconception to think that all became part of the Junior Training Corps. These are the Cadet Corps affiliated to the Royal Scots(TF)pre-1914;- Haddington Cadet Corps - affiliated 8th Bn, R.Scots. North Berwick Cadet Corps - affiliated 8th Bn, R.Scots Prestonpans Cadet Corps - affiliated 8th Bn, R.Scots. Tranet Cadet Company - affiliated 8th Bn, R.Scots. 1st(Highland)Cadet Battalion, Royal Scots - affiliated 9th Bn, R.Scots. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 Seph, Sorry about that. I thought you were on about the wee fella. I think both in the top photo are Royal Scots. With reference to the guy in the KD jacket, the badge is more side-ways on than the other. But there are 2 other good combat indicators of Royal Scots. The badge on the left hand man is the same length as the chap on the right, and the cockade is large behind the badge. The Argyll's cockade was more trimmed to the badge and the Fess Cheque is different. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 I think we can agree to disagree here chaps. I'm not convinced the bages are 'Royal Scots'... far to big and incorrect profile. Nothing is set in stone however, as we are all surmising as to the original regiment, and if there is period evidence to prove the contrary... could someone please post it here? Graham.. do you have any period photo's with chaps in similar garb? Albert.. do you have any other photos of the chaps in uniform, possibly showing a more side oin view of the badge? Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 Seph OK we'll give it a try and see what comes up. Anyway here we have 9th Royal Scots as would be seen just prior the prior to the Great War. What stands out here is that the glengarry dicing is a match for the Lennox lads dicing who did himself serve and die with the 9th, R.S. and the cap badge is of a similar shape. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 Although taken in the 1960's, but comparing it with the original photo is does give you an idea of the Argylls cap badge on the plain glengarry and the distinct tear drop which is not noted in the original Lennox photo. There would be no diamond shape to it if viewed side on. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 This is the Argylls again, a regular battalion in a trench wearing the distinctive glengarry dicing that has been mentioned earlier. Whats not being worn in this photo is the cap badge. Graham. PS Forgot to add - check out the sporran worn by the Lennox brother on the left and the photo as a Cadet - it's the same sporran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 Excellent photo's Graham.... thank you for posting them. I pointed out in #20, the similarity of sporrons between the initial photo and that for the cadet. I'll have to admit that Kilts and Sporrons are a huge grey area for me... a subject better described by a true Scot I think! I still see similarities with the Argyll's badge from the 'Band' photo you posted Graham. Think I'll do a good comparrison study before going any further. The 'teardrop' you mention stands out quite well. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 January , 2008 Share Posted 21 January , 2008 Definately Royal Scots and we already have evidence from a Medal Index Card that one of the brothers did infact serve and die with the R.S., plus as I have already mentioned one is wearing his Imperial Service broach and so would have been in one of the RS(TF) battalions. I suspect that both did infact serve with the RS and that the other brother was transferred to the RE at a later date. The Cadet photo is more difficult to determine as many pre-war Cadet units were "affiliated" only to their local pre-1908 Volunteer or post-1908 T.F. units, and as such could were a badge of their own design. Only units with titles such as "1st Cadet Bn, Blankshires" would wear a badge reflecting the unit to whom they belonged, with somewhere on the badge "Cadet Bn". A lot of schools were also "affiliated" to Volunteer/T.F. units but these came and went as time went on and it's a misconception to think that all became part of the Junior Training Corps. These are the Cadet Corps affiliated to the Royal Scots(TF)pre-1914;- Haddington Cadet Corps - affiliated 8th Bn, R.Scots. North Berwick Cadet Corps - affiliated 8th Bn, R.Scots Prestonpans Cadet Corps - affiliated 8th Bn, R.Scots. Tranet Cadet Company - affiliated 8th Bn, R.Scots. 1st(Highland)Cadet Battalion, Royal Scots - affiliated 9th Bn, R.Scots. Graham. Hello Graham old friend, I agree Royal Scots, a badge I have seen at close quarters and in many conditions of light and shade for over 25 years. The dicing on the Glengarry (even when making allowances for B&W photo) confirms this. No idea about cadet though. Bob Bennett P.S. Are you still serving TA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 1 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2008 Hello all! Thanks to Crunchy, Bootnecks and Tom A McCluskey for all of your inputs on this. Many apologies for not responding earlier: I have had to be away from the forum for a week or two. I had no idea I was opening such a can of worms! Unfortunately I have no better images available, but may do one day; a magnifying glass on the original print doesn't help at all ... unfortunately the records we have (i.e. CWGC) only mention John having been in the Royal Scots and Len having been in the RE ... and from earlier suggestions we were assuming he might have been in the Royal Scots first .... it looks as though it's too difficult to be certain from the uniforms, but thanks very much for the contributions .... Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 1 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2008 Hello again, I missed the fact that there was a whole second page of contributions to look at so thanks to Graham Stewart and Frogsmile and for the interesting photos. I'm afraid I'm completely out of my depth here but it all makes interesting reading. My feeling is that the consensus is that in the photo of the two brothers they are wearing Royal Scots uniform, which certainly fits with what we know about John and, as Graham has said, could indicate that Len was in the Royal Scots before being transferred to thhe RE. And that the picture of Len as a cadet is less certain ... the original photo (which I don't have access to at the moment) is quite big so it might be possible to look at the hat badge more closely. I'll let you know. Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 14 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2017 This is a topic I started quite a lot of years ago, and I've recently been able to return to it and I thought I should update the information here. I have recently discovered that John Houston wasn't promoted to Corporal until April 1917 (in the Edinburgh University roll of honour – online on the National Library of Scotland website), so it looks as though the two brothers were wearing their own uniforms (in the first entry), which means that Len was already a corporal and was senior to his older brother at this time (possibly because he'd been a cadet?). And the explanation that he would have lost his rank when he moved to the Royal Engineers fits perfectly. I'm working on the assumption now that they were both in the Royal Scots at the time the photo was taken, which must have been in the summer of 1915 after John had volunteered but before he went to France. But I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts about Len's cadet uniform – unfortunately I'm still working from a now very good scanned copy of the photo – but I'll put it up here again on the off chance. Any ideas what unit he might have belonged to? Many thanks for everyone's input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 16 March , 2017 Share Posted 16 March , 2017 I've a description of John Houston's draft leaving 3/9th for 1/9th in France, from B.C. Holmer (IWM), in the early hours of 9th October 1915: 'The draft left at 2 AM on Sat. the whole battn. turning out + police being on duty from 1.15 till 3 o'clock... Total strength was 109, and they have left the camp beastly dull.' I'm not sure about cadet uniforms but given John was at Edinburgh Institution, Len may have been the same, and they may have had a corps? Index of personnel: https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/index/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 17 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Dear Neill, Thank you very much for this post and the helpful information. Do you know where the camp was that B.C. Holmer mentions? The date certainly fits as his willl is dated the previous day. Can I ask you how you know that John was in that draft? I am in contact with what is now Stewart’s Melville College and have asked about a cadet force. But looking closely at the photo of Len as a cadet, I'm wondering whether that could be St. Andrews in the background - that's where he was born and spent his early years before moving to Edinburgh, probably in 1910. I was very interested to see your index of personnel and specifically the information about John there. I was also interested to see that you are writing a history of the battalion - I would be very keen to know more about that and when it might be available to consult. I am trying to pin down a little bit more information about what John was involved in and specifically the action in which he was wounded on 23rd April 1917. Many thanks, Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Albert, Sorry, I should have said - Peebles. I'm very much hoping to finish my history this year - I'll keep you posted. Of course, I am always interested in any information I can glean from others for the index and the history. As for the 23rd April 17, you'll know of course this was the attack on Rœux, with heavy casualties. If there was something specific, I would of course send it on. Kind regards, Neill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 17 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Hi again Neill, Thank you for the additional bit of info. Yes, please let me know when your history become available. I will let you know if there is anything of interest I find in the meantime. It's only recently, when I came across the Edinburgh University Roll of Honour, that I knew for sure that it was Roeux where John had been wounded. It was discussed in this forum under "Soldiers" quite a lot of years ago: I have since read the War Diary entry for that day, and am hoping to find out more. What would you say is the best published book to include information about that attack, the Battle of the Scarpe, or Arras in 1917 generally? I hope to be able to visit the battlefields one day. Are you involved in any centenary commemorations? Best wishes, Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 20 March , 2017 Share Posted 20 March , 2017 Albert, thanks for the link. I think a good text is Bewsher's History of the 51st Division, which is available online here: https://archive.org/details/historyof51sthig00bews The regimental history of the war is Ewing's The Royal Scots 1914-1918 A well known general history of Arras is Cheerful Sacrifice by Jon Nicholls, including material on the 9th RS. There is an example map here http://maps.nls.uk/view/101465068 (see I 19 & 20) - From the Index, I've been trying to see if your John Houston 351091, was John Houston 3527 before renumbering? Do you have that from his will? Neill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 21 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2017 Hi again Neill, Good to hear back from you, thanks. Yes, spot on for John's number - that is what's on his will, and it is preceded by what looks like "Lo." Could that be right? When did renumbering take place? Was that just because of the sheer numbers of soldiers? Hope that helps to clarify something for you! Thanks too for the other links and reading suggestions - I will investigate. Best wishes, Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 22 March , 2017 Share Posted 22 March , 2017 Morning Albert, Thank you for tying the numbers together for me. They do fit perfectly in the sequence. Renumbering is described thoroughly here: http://www.1914-1918.net/TF_renumbering_infantry.htm Not sure what Lo. means, I would have guessed No.! Anyway, 3527 means he would have attested between 7th and 9th July 1915. Also we have his name on the Index page of the enlistment book at Edinburgh Castle: I hope to add to your reading list soon! Kind regards, N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 22 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 22 March , 2017 Hi Neill, Thank you for this and the link, image and further info. Another piece in the jigsaw! It could be "no.", with a long tail on the "n"! Can I ask you how you knew about John Houston being in the draft that left Peebles on 9th October 1915? Are the names listed somewhere? Best wishes, Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 The 1915 Star Medal Roll and his Medal Index Card give his first theatre as France dated 12.10.15. As this draft was ~100 I have a few others the same who were 3/9th to 1/9th, and the University of Edinburgh roll gives him as 3/9th which also matches. The battalion magazine 'The Leather Sporran' was good on listing drafts from 2/9th but not this one, but then I only have three issues of this and am keenly seeking others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 25 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 25 March , 2017 Hi again Neill, Thank you for the helpful explanations. The picture is gradually becoming clearer. I'm putting something together on John on the "Lives of the First World War" website, just in case you're interested. Best wishes, Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 27 March , 2017 Share Posted 27 March , 2017 Well done Albert, I'll take a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 27 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 March , 2017 Hi again Neill, Well, once you start digging it's amazing what you can find ... John and Len both attended Edinburgh Institution, which had a cadet force from about 1910 (I have just learned). It was part of the 1st (Highlanders) Cadet Battalion the Royal Scots, and was affiliated to the 9th Battalion of the same regiment. There could be a link there between John Houston and the regiment/battalion he joined. Do your records go back as far as that? But I'm now also wondering about the photos of Len - could that be the unit he was in as a young cadet in the photo? And also - might that explain why he's wearing the uniform of a corporal in 1915 alongside his older brother ... could he in fact still have been a cadet at that time? He was at Edinburgh Instituition until 1915, i.e. till the time John joined up and shortly before he left for France. Excuse my ramblings ... but any thoughts would be most welcome! Best wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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