Uniforms

[Ron Abbott]

On 3/17/2017 at 23:50, albert arnold said:

Dear Neill,

Thank you very much for this post and the helpful information. Do you know where the camp was that B.C. Holmer mentions? The date certainly fits as his willl is dated the previous day. Can I ask you how you know that John was in that draft? I am in contact with what is now Stewart’s Melville College and have asked about a cadet force. But looking closely at the photo of Len as a cadet, I'm wondering whether that could be St. Andrews in the background - that's where he was born and spent his early years before moving to Edinburgh, probably in 1910.

 

I was very interested to see your index of personnel and specifically the information about John there. I was also interested to see that you are writing a history of the battalion - I would be very keen to know more about that and when it might be available to consult. I am trying to pin down a little bit more information about what John was involved in and specifically the action in which he was wounded on 23rd April 1917.

Many thanks, Albert

 

Hi Albert,

 

Is there anything you can do to enhance the kilts in the photos?  

 

The reason I ask is that the Hunting Stewart is usually fairly easy to identify, not due to colour or overstripes but because it is an asymetric tartan.....and not many other tartans are.  

 

Secondly, as a former pupil of Stewarts Melville College myself, if memory serves me correct not only the cadet corps of that school but also of the Royal High School were affiliated originally to the Dandy Ninth (rather than the Royal Scots 'in general' or any other battalion).  

 

Both schools long wore the Hunting Stewart at least until the late 1970s when the pipers at Stewart's Melville were changed to Royal Stewart.  I do recall seeing photos of the cadet corps of either Daniel Stewarts College or Melville College (long before amalgamation) in Hunting Stewart kilts, but have no idea as to time frame.....but definitely pre-WW2. 

 

Ron

[Neill Gilhooley]

13 hours ago, albert arnold said:

Do your records go back as far as that?

Albert, Good to see progress being made! I have very little on cadets (except I've a copy of Les Howie's history of George Watson's), always keen to learn more. I think Ron will furnish more help here. N

[albert arnold]

Hi Ron,

 

Thank you very much for your input here - much appreciated. I'm afraid the photos are the best I've got at the moment. They are actually photos of the the originals, and not especially high resolution: I can see I'll have to go back to the originals (located elsewhere) and have a closer look.

 

Do you think there's any way that Len in this photo could be in the uniform of a cadet?

 

Best, Albert

[Ron Abbott]

I've seen photos of a unit of either cadets or territorials in Edinburgh before that wore very similar sporrans to that.....maybe identical, maybe not.  

Short in length, with three white tassles over black.  

 

But I can't remember which battalion or unit they were from.  Sorry.  

Will have to think about it.    

[albert arnold]

Thanks again Ron, will look forward to any thoughts you have.

 

Best wishes,

 

Albert

[gordon92]

8 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

I've seen photos of a unit of either cadets or territorials in Edinburgh before that wore very similar sporrans to that.....maybe identical, maybe not.  

Short in length, with three white tassles over black.  

 

But I can't remember which battalion or unit they were from.  Sorry.  

Will have to think about it.    

Ron

The 6th HLI wore a sporran of 3 white brushes on a black ground.  Perhaps, that is the unit you recall.  However, that would have been a long time ago.

 

Mike

[Ron Abbott]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

Ron

The 6th HLI wore a sporran of 3 white brushes on a black ground.  Perhaps, that is the unit you recall.  However, that would have been a long time ago.

 

Mike

 

 

No, not the HLI but you are of course correct re, the sporrans.

 

I've searched and searched...and searched google images (!) and found one single photo of the unit, I;m now fairly sure that it was.  Please view linkl below.  Purported to be the Edinburgh University Battery OTC : -

 

http://libraryblogs.is.ed.ac.uk/untoldstories/2017/03/08/i-edinburgh-university-battery-officers-training-corps-otc/

 

However they had their own cap badge, their hose are a different colour and the sporrans, although similar are not identical; so back to square one. 

 

Sorry for taking this off at tangents. 

 

[gordon92]

19 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

 

 

No, not the HLI but you are of course correct re, the sporrans.

 

I've searched and searched...and searched google images (!) and found one single photo of the unit, I;m now fairly sure that it was.  Please view linkl below.  Purported to be the Edinburgh University Battery OTC : -

 

http://libraryblogs.is.ed.ac.uk/untoldstories/2017/03/08/i-edinburgh-university-battery-officers-training-corps-otc/

 

However they had their own cap badge, their hose are a different colour and the sporrans, although similar are not identical; so back to square one. 

 

Sorry for taking this off at tangents. 

 

Yes, I see what you mean.  Those sporrans except for the cantle badge are identical to those of the 6th HLI.

[albert arnold]

Hi Mike and Ron,

 

Thank you for your further thoughts here, and the link. Do you have any idea where I might track down information about the 1st (Highlanders) Cadet Battalion? There's very little on the internet at all (or not that I've managed to find).

 

Best, Albert

[FROGSMILE]

It seems to me that in the first photo they are both either pre-war (probable given the cadet photo) or early war members of the "Dandy Ninth", the kilt wearing, Territorial Force battalion of the Royal Scots. This fits with the IMPERIAL SERVICE bar that began to be issued to 'volunteers' for overseas commitment well before the war.  The cadet photo also shows a Royal Scots badge in my opinion.

Given the family history that you have outlined it seems that one of the brothers was a full corporal in the 9th (TF) before the war, but then transferred to the RE, where he would not, as a matter of course, necessarily retain his rank.

 

Afternote: sorry everyone, I can't seem to delete this and yet see that I contributed years ago. Basically I agree with all that Graham Stewart has said already.

Edited 3 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[albert arnold]

Hi Frogsmile,

 

Thank you very much for your input here - no need to apologize or delete! Good to have it reconfirmed!

 

Best wishes,

 

Albert

[albert arnold]

It's been a while since I've been able to post anything here. But work on the Houston brothers has continued and they now have entries on the IWM website. I've recently come across another photograph from the family collection, but as so often it is unnamed. The question is: could this be Cpl. John Houston of 1/9th Royal Scots? We now know from the Edinburgh University records that he was wounded at Roeux on 23rd April 1917 during the Battle of the Scarpe.

 

Can anyone throw any light on the uniform? And the medal ribbon? I'll look forward to any thoughts. I'm putting the earlier photo of John with his brother Len here for ease of reference. John is on the right.

[Andrew Upton]

5 hours ago, albert arnold said:

...could this be Cpl. John Houston of 1/9th Royal Scots?... Can anyone throw any light on the uniform? And the medal ribbon? I'll look forward to any thoughts. I'm putting the earlier photo of John with his brother Len here for ease of reference. John is on the right.

 

 

The uniform is that of an officer, so if John Houston was not commissioned at a later date then it cannot be him. The glengarry dicing, badge and collar badges do appear to be the officers versions of the Royal Scots though. The medal ribbons appear to be the Military Medal first (not awarded to officers, so the man in the photo must have seen service in the ranks at some point) and that of either the 1914 or 1914-15 Star ribbon (very similar medals with identical ribbons) - like the first two in the photo below:

 

Edit - rereading the original post, if John died in May 1917 and the second ribbon is the 1914 or 1914-15 Star that adds weight to the argument it is not him as the awards were not instituted until after his death.

 

 

Edited 18 February , 2019 by Andrew Upton

[albert arnold]

Hello Andrew,

 

Thank you very much for your speedy reply and all the helpful information. You confirmed what I thought, i.e. that it is an officer's uniform. John was not commissioned, so it cannot be him. I will have to continue puzzling out who else in the family it might have been!

 

Best wishes,

 

Albert