albert arnold Posted 10 January , 2008 Share Posted 10 January , 2008 In other threads, I've been getting a lot of help from the forum about my great uncles John Houston (9th Royal Scots) and Lennox Houston (R.E. - 8th Division Signals Company). John died of his wounds in Boulogne on 3rd May 1917, I imagine after being involved in the Battle of Arras. Len was killed in action on 16th August 1917 in the early stages of Passchendaele. This is a photo of the two brothers, and I am wondering if anyone can tell me anything about their uniforms. The puzzling thing is that John was a corporal, Len a pioneer - but Len is on the left, John on the right and it is Len who seems to have a couple of stripes on his arm. Thanks, Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogturn Posted 10 January , 2008 Share Posted 10 January , 2008 Hi Albert,its just a thought,but they haven't swapped uniforms for a bit of a lark perhaps?regards,paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 11 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2008 Thanks Paul, that thought had crossed my mind too! I'm hoping that an expert might be able to tell me whether what Corporal John on the right is wearing corresponds more to the uniform of an RE pioneer and what Len on the left is wearing is that of an infantry corporal ... Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 11 January , 2008 Share Posted 11 January , 2008 As both are in kilts, cut away Scots tunic and Scottish headress I would say that neither is in the RE Signal service. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 11 January , 2008 Share Posted 11 January , 2008 I didn't realise they made the simplified SD jacket in cut-away form for the highland regiments. Makes sense that they did, though! Anyway, that dates the photo to mid-war. Do you know when they enlisted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 11 January , 2008 Share Posted 11 January , 2008 When this photo was taken both were serving in the Royal Scots and it's quite likely one was a signaller who was transferred to the RE Signals before going overseas. The jacket being worn on your left is infact a 'khaki drill' cut away pattern for Highland dressed units wearing kilt and sporran. The Royal Scots themselves were a Lowland Regiment and had a tendancy to wear trews, but I believe one or more of its Territorial Force battalions wore kilts and its interesting to note that the lad on your right is infact wearing the 'Imperial Service' broach on his right breast indicating that he had volunteered for overseas service. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 11 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2008 Hi Alan, Alliekiwi and Graham, Thanks for your comments all of which throw light on the photo. John (on the right in the photo) was 23 when he died in 1917 and had enlisted by Oct 1915 (from his will date); Len was a couple of years younger (he was 20 when he was killed) and his will is dated 1916. The detail about the Imperial Service broach is very interesting - thanks for that. And it is also helpful to know they are both in Royal Scots uniform here - yes, it could well be that Len transferred later. I am attaching a picture of Len in uniform when he was much younger - as a cadet? Does this tell us anything? But he couldn't have gone from being a corporal in the Royal Scots to being a pioneer in the R.E., could he? In which case, he is wearing someone else's jacket! Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 11 January , 2008 Share Posted 11 January , 2008 Albert, There is every possibility that on transfer to another Corps he would have lost his rank and it was common for it to happen. If the unit he was transferred too was up to establishment of of it's junior NCO's then he would have had to 'revert' back, or he may have requested to 'revert', again not unknown. The Cadet picture is interesting as the cap badge doesn't look Royal Scots, but I'm unfamiliar with Socttish Cadet unit badges that were affiliated to local Territorial units of the Royal Scots. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 11 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2008 Thanks Graham, so there is a possibility that he was a corporal in the Royal Scots, and therefore was wearing his own jacket! Maybe someone else will be able to shed some light on the uniform in the second picture. Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 12 January , 2008 Share Posted 12 January , 2008 An enlistment in 1915 certainly fits with the jacket John's wearing. The pockets are a give away they're longer than on the usual jacket, and don't have pleats. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindyathome Posted 12 January , 2008 Share Posted 12 January , 2008 definitely looks like a black watch thing to me but worth checking out a website that i have used a bit. THe guy who runs it is a gun at identifying uniforms. royalhighlanders.co.uk give it a go...he's fantastic. Dug up a whole raft of info on an unidentified uniform for me some time ago. Cindy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert arnold Posted 14 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2008 Thanks Allie and Cindy. More helpful leads - can I ask Cindy, was your point about the uniforms of the two soldiers or of the young man as a cadet? What would be helpful is to know if the cadet uniform somehow identifies him further as having been with the Royal Scots before he moved to the RE - Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 15 January , 2008 Share Posted 15 January , 2008 Albert, Hard to be precise with the images but in both photographs, including the one of Len as a Cadet, they look like Royal Scots badges to me. Black Watch badge is more elongated. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 15 January , 2008 Share Posted 15 January , 2008 The Glengarry badge is far to big to be Royal Scots, as their badge is the star of St.Andrews, as is the Highland Light Infantry. The Black Watch have a more elongated version of the St.Andrews Star. The Kings Own Scottish Borderers have a similar sized badge to the Black Watch, but this photos badge is more of a teardrop shape...This is the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 16 January , 2008 Share Posted 16 January , 2008 Seph, Sorry, but that's not an Argylls' glengarry. Their dicing is very distinctive. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 16 January , 2008 Share Posted 16 January , 2008 Tom... the 'Ash' is the only glengarry badge that I know of which is the same shape as those in the initial pic! I'm going by the badge, not the patching layout. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 16 January , 2008 Share Posted 16 January , 2008 Seph, I don't think it is an Argyl's badge either - too angular - I still think it looks like Royal Scots but the image is too blurred to be sure. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 17 January , 2008 Share Posted 17 January , 2008 'Crunchy', I'm not convinced that the badges are Royal Scots. The whole outline is not right, and the badge is far to big. Anyway, heres why I'm going for the Argyll's... I've illustrated the Scots Glengarry Badges in order from largest to smallest... Argyll's first.. as its the largest = Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, Black Watch, Kings Own Scottish Borderers, Cameron Highlander, Highland Light Infantry, Royal Scots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 17 January , 2008 Share Posted 17 January , 2008 Black Watch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 17 January , 2008 Share Posted 17 January , 2008 Kings Own Scottish Borderers, Cameron Highlanders, Highland Light Infantry, Royal Scots. **As an after thought...the soldier on the left has the same Glengary Badge as the other, but his Sporron has three tassles, which incidentally is the same as that worn by the young cadet #7. Can any of our resident Scottish regimental experts point us in the correct direction as to which regiment? Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 Seph, The points you make are compelling, particularly the size of the badge against the glengarry. The Royal Scots badge being about 3/4 the size of the Argyles. Were the glengarrys of all Regiments the same height? It is hard to tell but I'm still not sure they are Argyle badges in the first post. See here at post 34 http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...25&start=25 for an Argyles both from the angle in the first post above and from side on. The dicing on the glengarry is also different and the sporran is a different shape at the top and has six tassles as opposed to three. John's badge, which is the easier to see, appears to be different - to me it doesn't have the tear drop shape with the point at the top - although that may be because of old eyes on my part!. Len's sporron also appears to have a badge of a standing Lion - is that a pointer? Perhaps we can get Chris CPGW to "colourize" the photo in the first post? The cadet photo in post 7 above appears to be similar to a Royal Scots badge. How's the 2 Lancs Fusiliers coming along? Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 Chris... sorry... I'm standing by assessment that the badges of John & Len are of the 'ASH' type. None of the others come near to even faking the silhuette of the first photo. Now, you make mention of what you seem to see in the form of a 'Prancing Lion'. OK.. lets compare Scottish battalions with that form of hereldic device upon their badges. There are three to my knowledge with prancing animals = x1 Horse & x2 Lions: Liverpool Scottish ( 10th Battalion: The King's Liverpool Regt ), London Scottish ( 18th Battalion: The London Regt ), and, Tyneside Scottish ( 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd Battalions: The Northumbeland Fusiliers ). Two of the above are rounded to the most part, but have to the rear ( protruding from all four corners ) the cross of St.Andrews. The third is more elongated. I've illustrated the badges below. Incidentally, the pics that you pointed to in your leed only serve to strenthen my assumption. I'm no expert on the dimensions of Scottish military attire, but as far as I am aware, the size of the Scottish regimental glengarry was and still is standard. This would have had to have been the practice in order to conform to Kings Uniform Regulations. The glengarry hatching however is another issue, as this has its depths in regimental traditions, as does the kilt tartans. The 2nd Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers is doing splendidly... thank you for enquiring! We entered 2008 with a half section = 7 ranks. Not bad since we were only formed at the beginning of May. Those joined were out of just over 140 who enquired, and each individual made their first purchase.. a WW.1 dated SMLE. Anyone interested in joining us.. 'PM' me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 ...and the final badge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 Seph, I agree they are not the TF badges. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 19 January , 2008 Share Posted 19 January , 2008 Seph, I do not think that that is an Argyll cap badge. The sporran is a red herring, and I am pretty certain is not a regular army issued item. The small 'day' type sporrans are not a regulation item until after the war. The Argyll one generally matching that of the Black Watch and until recently, made in the same place. The reasons why I don't see it being an Argyll's badge is: 1. Not long enough, in height. 2. Wrong shape 3. An Argyll cap badge blurs to a teardrop; the one in the photo is a squint, blurred star Hope this helps Aye Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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