7th{Fife} Bn. Royal Highlanders

[max7474]

Ok here are one or two pics I have on the computer of 7th Bn BW, I think most are pre war.

Fascinating photo on the previous page - what is the bonnet badge the chap in the foreground is wearing - it looks circular?

Alan

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Ian,

Good to hear from you. Amazing that you found this thread and I had not even sent you a PM yet, I was going to do that today.

Great photo. I've been trying to research a chap called Forret who was in the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, I wonder if that is his brother in the photo?

It would be very difficult to name the town without known when the photo of taken, as you know, most towns near the front line were in ruins.

I have found two men in the photo who may have been awarded medals. One is pte Lumsden who was awarded the Croix de Guerre. The other is Sgt. J Lumsden who was awarded the MM and was also MiD'ed.

I've got some good news, I have been offered a Part time job in the local Library. Which is great, as I can still carry on doing gardening but have a steady wage coming in during the winter months.

Regards,

Stewart

[gnr.ktrha]

Alan,

It is the same badges as Macthomas has as his photo. If you look at Macthomas's post, this badge appears below his name. It is the old volunteer badge of the 6th {Fifeshire} Volunteer Battalion of the Black Watch. It was ment to be changed in 1908 for the territorial version of the Black Watch badge, but seems to have been worn right up until 1914 by some companies/soldiers.

Regards,

Stewart

[max7474]

Many thanks for such a prompt reply. Very helpful and informative as ever.

Alan

[davidwwebster]

David,

To get you started, here is a link to Ian Edwards site on the 5th (Angus & Dundee) Bn The Black Watch (TF):

http://www.royalhighlanders.co.uk/

.....much snipped...............

Anything else I find I'll post

Aye

Tom McC

Hi Tom

Many thanks for all that. I'd lost the details of Ian's site some years ago. We had considerable contact since, I seem to recall, his ancestor was also in C (Montrose) Company.

I should have made it clear that I have copies of all the clippings from Balhousie Castle's WWI press clippings book, including the Montrose newspaper, from which the photo derives. Apparantly my grandfather carried in his wallet for the rest of his life a photo of his wee brother, but where that photo went, I know not.

I also have some extracts from the battalion diary, obtained from TNA at Kew by a professional researcher some years ago. The saddest aspect is that the battalion were never actually in action on the day that my great-uncle was killed; they were in reserve, but still took many casualties from artillery fire, some of which at least, if not most, was "blue on blue", to use modern parlance.

In addition, I also have the London Gazette entry relating to his DCM.

And many thanks also for the info on the book, already ordered! The best I've done previously, - can't recall the title, - was a book which covered Aubers Ridge in about 3 pages!

My motive for the post in this thread, which I should in retrospect have explained in more detail, - but then I was probably thinking that I'd covered this in my self introduction post elsewhere, - was the slowly dawning realisation that while I'm confident that I could identify the badges of the 10 post-Cardwell regular regiments, including distinguishing a Gordon from a Seaforth , I'd never properly appreciated that the TF battalion badges would or could be different.

BTW, a final question, would Joseph Webster have been posthumously entitled to the relevant WWI campaign medals?

Many thanks.

Orraverybest

David

(edited later to add the London Gazette info)

[dycer]

Hi Tom

Many thanks for all that. I'd lost the details of Ian's site some years ago. We had considerable contact since, I seem to recall, his ancestor was also in C (Montrose) Company.

I should have made it clear that I have copies of all the clippings from Balhousie Castle's WWI press clippings book, including the Montrose newspaper, from which the photo derives. Apparantly my grandfather carried in his wallet for the rest of his life a photo of his wee brother, but where that photo went, I know not.

I also have some extracts from the battalion diary, obtained from TNA at Kew by a professional researcher some years ago. The saddest aspect is that the battalion were never actually in action on the day that my great-uncle was killed; they were in reserve, but still took many casualties from artillery fire, some of which at least, if not most, was "blue on blue", to use modern parlance.

And many thanks also for the info on the book, already ordered! The best I've done previously, - can't recall the title, - was a book which covered Aubers Ridge in about 3 pages!

My motive for the post in this thread, which I should in retrospect have explained in more detail, - but then I was probably thinking that I'd covered this in my self introduction post elsewhere, - was the slowly dawning realisation that while I'm confident that I could identify the badges of the 10 post-Cardwell regular regiments, including distinguishing a Gordon from a Seaforth , I'd never properly appreciated that the TF battalion badges would or could be different.

BTW, a final question, would Joseph Webster have been posthumously entitled to the relevant WWI campaign medals?

Many thanks.

Orraverybest

David

David,

Slightly off topic but I am a Fifer

From the 1/8th Royal Scots

Festubert

"May 1915 was a month of trial.The 8th Division,supported by the 7th,was to attack the enemy positions near Fromelles.The Battalion took up their assembly position for the attack on the night of the 8th,but it was not until the 16th that the Battalion occupied the front line.While other troops had the incentive of going forward,the Battalion was ordered to hold their position.They were subjected to incessant and very heavy shell-fire and suffered considerably.--------.

In addition to Lieutenant-Colonel A. Brook,V.D.,31 other ranks were killed,and 11 officers and 148 other ranks wounded and 3 missing."

My Uncle survived the above but not the War.

George

p.s.My Uncle posthumously received the 1914 Star,War and Victory Medals.Have you checked your Grt/Uncles's MIC?

[davidwwebster]

Hello,

The photo of Sgt Webster shows him in the uniform of The Queens Own Cameron Highlanders. He has been a member of the 1st Battalion and has served in the 1898 Sudan Campaign, where his regiment took part in the battle at Omberman. He has also served in the 1899-1902 Boer War. His medals are from L-R Queen's Sudan Medal, Queen's South African Medal with clasps, King's South African Medal with 2 Clasps and the Khedive's Sudan Medal with 2 Clasps { The Atbara & Khartoum}.

His collar badges would be a Thistle with a crown above, in white metal. As for the 5th Black Watch badges, I have scanned a photo of the shoulder title in a different thread. {If you click on my user name on the top left you will get onto my user page and them you can search form my previous posts, using the drop down list on the right}

My great Uncle was also a Sergeant in the 5th Bn. he was with B company, from Forfar.

Regards,

Stewart

Hi Stewart

You folk, to use a guid Glasgow expression, are just pure deid brilliant !!

I'm in a curious situation in the sense that as a founder member and organiser of the TalkingScot Scottish genealogy forum, I am well used to similar expressions of amazement when a new member's long standing brick wall is completely demolished by other members inside 24 hours, but it's something else again to be at the "receiving end", so to speak ! But very pleasant.

I'd never previously given any real thought as to whether this photo, from the Montrose newspaper article covering his death and the award of DCMs to him and the C Company CSM, showed him in the uniform of the Camerons or the Black Watch. It was only when I'd signed up to this DG, and realised that I had no idea just what uniform he was wearing in that photo, that it occurred to me to ask the question.

Many thanks for the medal identification, - I have the detailed info on the medals from his papers obtained from Kew many years ago by a professional researcher, - but would never have been able to distinguish among them in such a low quality B&W scan from a newspaper cutting.

His service records shows the (Queen's) South African Medal with 4 clasps, - Johannesburg, Diamond Hill, Wittebergen, and Cape Colony.

It's shivers down the spine time when you mention that your own great-uncle was also in the 5th, and as a member of the serjeants mess, and from a town only a short distance from Forfar, to which Joseph may have had ancestral links, most probably knew Joseph.

Thanks again.

Orraverybest

David

[davidwwebster]

David,

Slightly off topic but I am a Fifer

From the 1/8th Royal Scots

Festubert

"May 1915 was a month of trial.The 8th Division,supported by the 7th,was to attack the enemy positions near Fromelles.The Battalion took up their assembly position for the attack on the night of the 8th,but it was not until the 16th that the Battalion occupied the front line.While other troops had the incentive of going forward,the Battalion was ordered to hold their position.They were subjected to incessant and very heavy shell-fire and suffered considerably.--------.

In addition to Lieutenant-Colonel A. Brook,V.D.,31 other ranks were killed,and 11 officers and 148 other ranks wounded and 3 missing."

My Uncle survived the above but not the War.

George

p.s.My Uncle posthumously received the 1914 Star,War and Victory Medals.Have you checked your Grt/Uncles's MIC?

Hi George

Many thanks for that.

I'd have included a similar quote from the diary of the 5th Black Watch, except that it might take me an hour or two to locate an as yet unpublished article on my great-uncle's military service with The Camerons and The Black Watch. It was written at least 15 years ago, and I think that it's somewhere on my current hard disk, but I'm not 100% sure !! ..............

To my eternal shame, having known about the MICs since they came on line, and used them extensively in genealogical research for others, I've never thought of using them in relation to my great-uncle ..............

Orraverybest

David

[davidwwebster]

Hey!!

I've been promoted !! <vbg>

David

[dycer]

Hi George

Many thanks for that.

I'd have included a similar quote from the diary of the 5th Black Watch, except that it might take me an hour or two to locate an as yet unpublished article on my great-uncle's military service with The Camerons and The Black Watch. It was written at least 15 years ago, and I think that it's somewhere on my current hard disk, but I'm not 100% sure !! ..............

To my eternal shame, having known about the MICs since they came on line, and used them extensively in genealogical research for others, I've never thought of using them in relation to my great-uncle ..............

Orraverybest

David

David,

The quote came from an article written for the Haddingtonshire Courier in 1919

George

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

Here is the link to the photo of the other Black Watch titles-

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=72273&hl=

I see from his QSA clasps he was in the 1st Battalion of the Camerons. Do you know when he served from and to?

My great uncle was 485 Sergeant James {Jim} S Couper. He was a farrier and lived with my grandfather at the Smithy at Lour, just south of Forfar, near Kingsmuir. My Granddad remembers that the railway crossed some fields near to his house and when the comapny left from Forfar he stood by the line and his Big brother and his pals threw sweets to him.

Jim left the Black Watch in 1916 but enlisted into the RFC as a Black Smith Corporal. He remained in the RAF until about 1926, when he was discharged. When he came back to Scotland with his family, they lived in Airdrie. One of his sons was in Bomber Command in WW2 as an airgunner and was killed on the Essen Raid in March 1943. Another son was in the Navy. Jim died in 1949, he was a bus driver and was on his way to work in the dark when he fell down a hole in the road, the council had been doing road repairs, but had not bothered to put a barrier up. He spent the day at work with a splitting headache, came home and died that night!

Regards,

Stewart

[davidwwebster]

Hello,

Here is the link to the photo of the other Black Watch titles-

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=72273&hl=

I see from his QSA clasps he was in the 1st Battalion of the Camerons. Do you know when he served from and to?

My great uncle was 485 Sergeant James {Jim} S Couper. He was a farrier and lived with my grandfather at the Smithy at Lour, just south of Forfar, near Kingsmuir. My Granddad remembers that the railway crossed some fields near to his house and when the comapny left from Forfar he stood by the line and his Big brother and his pals threw sweets to him.

Jim left the Black Watch in 1916 but enlisted into the RFC as a Black Smith Corporal. He remained in the RAF until about 1926, when he was discharged. When he came back to Scotland with his family, they lived in Airdrie. One of his sons was in Bomber Command in WW2 as an airgunner and was killed on the Essen Raid in March 1943. Another son was in the Navy. Jim died in 1949, he was a bus driver and was on his way to work in the dark when he fell down a hole in the road, the council had been doing road repairs, but had not bothered to put a barrier up. He spent the day at work with a splitting headache, came home and died that night!

Regards,

Stewart

Hi Stewart

See attached ................... he enlisted at Perth.............

[Tom A McCluskey]

David,

His service looks like the same postings and movements as the 1st Bn the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders:

1895 Gibraltar

1897 (31st March become 1st Battalion The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders on formation of 2nd Bn)

1897 Egypt

1898 Sudan

1899 Egypt

1900 (March) South Africa

1902 Scotland: Fort George

Here's the MIC:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=5

Aye

Tom McC

[davidwwebster]

Hi Tom

Yes, he was indeed in the Camerons, - apologies if I didn't make that clear.

Thanks for the medal card reference. It only shows the DCM. Was he not entitled to any of the WWI campaign medals?, or were such only awarded to those who survived?

Orraverybest

David

[Tom A McCluskey]

David,

If he was out from when the 5th were deployed then he should have Pip, Squeak, and Wilfred:

http://www.fylde.demon.co.uk/pip.htm

And Apologies, both of his MICs are here (mind and not order the one you already have, WO 372/23 is the DCM):

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=*

Aye

Tom McC

[davidwwebster]

Hi Tom

Thanks again!! I wouldn't have known to keep looking, for another medal card.

Here's the PS&W medal card.

I understand it all, including the "14" annotation in relation to Pip, except for one thing.....

What's the annotation 2 lines below "14 Star" ?

It's difficult to see on the image above, but it's fairly clear on the TNA PDF file as " Clasp 2/2915 ".

And a new thing learnt for today, - a PDF document can be saved as a PNG file, - I thought for a few minutes that I was going to have to scan a printout

My old brain finally remembered where the Word file was, - herewith an extract................

Extracts from the War Diary of the 1/5th (Angus & Dundee) Battalion The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) (T.F) for the 8th, 9th, and 10th May 1915.

Note. This is a transcription of the actual War Diary written at the time of the events described.

p4. 8th (Contd)

This evening in accordance with 24th Infantry Brigade

Operations Order No 21, the] (sic) Battalion left Divisional

Reserve billets at 9.40 pm. and marched to starting

point at G16a [whence departure was made at 10.15

pm, the Battalion following 2/EAST LANCASHIRE

REGT.] The Battalion arrived at G Assembly trenches

at 12 midnight opposite Brigade Headquarters in

RUE PETILLON.

9th

Artillery bombardment started at 5am, and con-

tinued 40 minutes. Immediately on its cessation

the Battalion left the assembly trenches to gain the

fire trenches, advancing in close touch with 1/

WORCESTERSHIRE REGT. This movement was un

fortunately checked by reason of the SHERWOOD

FORESTERS not being able to vacate the fire trenches,

and from RUE PETILLON forward the Battalion

suffered badly form very heavy machine gun and

artillery fire. On attaining the objective, the

p5 9th Contd

Battalion occupied the assembly and communication

trenches in rear of 15 and in the proximity of where the

TIVIÈRE des LAYES crosses the trench line. Here the

Machine Gun Detachment rejoined, having closed in on

the right.

At 9 a.m., a fresh bombardment was begun by our

artillery.

During the whole forenoon, the Battalion remained

in the Assembly trenches and suffered considerably from

heavy shell fire.

At 1p.m., our artillery began a further bombardment,

as a result of which many casualties occurred in

the Battalion through shells dropping short.

Throughout the afternoon, the congestion in the

trenches continued and, towards nightfall, the enemy's

bombardment of our trenches increased, especially

in the neighbourhood of the RIVIÈRE des LAYES and

the SAILLY Road.

p6 9th Contd

At 10p.m., Brigade message BM59 was received

ordering the Battalion to proceed to Divisional

Reserve, and bivouac in Assembly trenches S. of ROUGE

de BOUT, in consequence of which the Battalion was

collected in communicating trench by SAILLY Road

and in Section 1R, and orders were issued to O.C.'s

Companies t proceed independently to the crossroads

RUE de QUESNES where the Battalion would re-

assemble.

At about 1.30 a.m., on 10th inst, the Battalion

arrived at Road Junction at ROUGE de BOUT, and

bivouaced in field north of the junction.

During the day, all ranks of the Battalion displayed

excellent coolness under particularly trying circums

tances, and the C.O. accordingly forwarded in course,

a number of recommendations for favourable con

sideration of the conduct of various officers and other

ranks.

p7 10th

The Battalion remained all day in bivouac, and

casualty lists were prepared. The details of these lists

were:-

officers

wounded 8 vizt:-

Lieut. R.F.D. BRUCE

2/Lieut. Hon. J. BOWES LYON (accidental)

2/Lieut. H.S. QUEKETT

2/Lieut. R.M. RITCHIE

Lieut. A.D. DICKIE

Capt. T. AUBERTIN

Lieut. H.R. McCABE

Lieut. A.W. DUKE

Other ranks

Killed 22

Wounded 108

Missing 8, of whom 2 reported later in the morning.

Joseph was among the missing, and is commemorated on Panel 7 of the Ploegsteert Memorial,

which I've visited.

Orraverybest

David

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

The annotation means he was awarded the clasp for the 1914 Star. I did not think any members of the 5th Black Watch were entitled to this clasp, so thats very interesting.

Regards,

Stewart

[davidwwebster]

Hello,

The annotation means he was awarded the clasp for the 1914 Star. I did not think any members of the 5th Black Watch were entitled to this clasp, so thats very interesting.

Regards,

Stewart

Hi Stewart

Many thanks for your further response.

So just what was the 1914 Star clasp?, and the circumstances in which it was awarded?

Orraverybest

David

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

I understand you had to apply for the clasp and prove that you had be within the range of German Mobile guns before 22nd November 1914. If you try the search box on the forum and type in ''Clasp'' you will find more details on it's award.

I will have a look through the battalion history and see if it gets a mention.

Regards,

Stewart

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

Somewhere between the 14th and the 18th of November 1914 the battalion moved into the line. On the 18th it suffered its first casualty, so it seems that many of the battalion could claim the 1914 Clasp because the whole battalion was in the line.

Regards,

Stewart

[Tom A McCluskey]

Ian,

Reference the soldiers of the 7th BW from Cupar, here are some possibilities, albeit it is worth having a look at the Cupar Roll of Honour:

Alexander Graham died 29/10/1918 and is buried in the Mons Communal Cemetery

292721 Robert Anderson was killed 23/04/1917

292029 Thomas Lumsden of Cupar died at home whilst with the 4th BW on 18/06/1918

3442 Andrew Reid of Dysart, Fife was Killed on 30/07/1916

CSM J Lumsden MM Died of Wounds on 30/07/1916 and is buried at Serre No 2

J Aitken could be one of 4 possibilities; the one with the 7th that enlisted in Cupar is 291604 J M Aitken Killed 28/06/1917

Two 'W Smiths' also lost their lives with the 7th:266891 William Pow Smith KIA 06/03/1918 & 291030 William Coull Smith KIA 11/04/1918.

Ian, it is also worth going to the Kirkcaldy Public library and asking if they have a copy of the Dinna Forget Book of the 7th Black Watch. It may have some more pictures and details.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

[jdwn1]

Tom

Thanks for the info. There was quite a high proportion of casualties from the Cupar men of the 7th BW that appeared in the photo. I have not heard of the book you mention but I will certainly visit the Library in Kirkcaldy and check it out.

Ian

[davidwwebster]

....snipped ...............

There are quite a lot of photos and details about the Black Watch in this book about Aubers Ridge:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Battle-Aubers-Ridg...4080&sr=8-1

Anything else I find I'll post

Aye

Tom McC

Book received in this morning's post, and relevant sections already read.

Fascinating, given that it's the first fully detailed account that I've read of the whole battle, but also very sad in terms of not just the 1/5th Black Watch casualties but also the other regiments in 24 Brigade and elsewhere in the 8th and other Divisions; that in the overall context that, while a significant battle, Aubers Ridge was a much "smaller" battle than many others, at least as regards casualties.

Orraverybest

David

[truthergw]

Book received in this morning's post, and relevant sections already read.

Fascinating, given that it's the first fully detailed account that I've read of the whole battle, but also very sad in terms of not just the 1/5th Black Watch casualties but also the other regiments in 24 Brigade and elsewhere in the 8th and other Divisions; that in the overall context that, while a significant battle, Aubers Ridge was a much "smaller" battle than many others, at least as regards casualties.

Orraverybest

David

What is even sadder, is that it is very hard to find any mention of Aubers Ridge by German historians. Neuve Chapelle is referred to but only in passing. These battles were insignificant compared to the battles in Champagne and Artois between the French and Germans. The battles at Aubers are seen as auxilliary actions by the Empire forces in support of the French in the battle of Artois 1915. Even the Battle of Loos is only referred to as part of the Battle of Artois. There was a major engagement at Vimy starting on the same day as Loos and Loos was considered to be a diversionary action.

[Macthomas]

Mac,

Great picture of a 6th Bn Black Watch man. Do you know who it is?

Alan:-

Differing badges for the TF to its parent sponsor regiment was commonplace - and for one simple, but fundamental reason: their role was home defence; thus many of the embellishments gained on campaign were removed. Even the TF Royal Artillery cap badges did not have 'ubique' (everywhere) on them; this was replaced with laurels as they did not serve everywhere. Obviously, this would change when the unit made the Imperial Service Obligation. Also, the motto is the Order of the Thistle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Thistle

Anyway, hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

Hi Tom,

No sorry dont know who he is, just one I saved from ebay.

Sorry for late reply, not been watching the forum.

Cheers