gnr.ktrha Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Hello Ian, Sorry for the delay, my camera is still dead so I have scanned them for you . These are the badges worn by members of the 7th {Fife] Battalion, Royal Highlander [The Black Watch] . The shoulder title was introduced in 1908 when they became part of the TF, prior to that they were the 6th{Fifshire} Volunteer Battalion, Royal Highlanders. This example is in Brass. On the Scarlet doublet they would have worn either a white metal version or embroidered version, but probably the later. The cap badge is the type issed to all the TF battalions prior to WW1. During the war they were issed with the regular pattern, probably from economic reasons and also because they had fought well and maintained the traditions of there parent regiment, so they were allowed to were the badge with the Sphinx upon it. It would appear that post war they continued to wear the regular 1901 to 1937 Pattern Royal Highlander badge. This is the White metal version of the badge, which was worn on the Glengarry and Balmoral bonnets and probably for a time on the Khaki Bonnet [some TF battalions wore the badge fro a while before being allowed to wear the Red Hackle}. Senior NCO's and officers would have the badge made in Bi metal. You will notice this badge is simialr to the highland Cyclist's badge. The collar badge is the Thain of Fife. It is very similar to the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry Collar badge, but has the addition of the scroll above the Thain. This collar badge was worn by the 6th Volunteer Battalion prior to 1908 and by the TF battalion after 1908. This example is in silver plate, but I also have an example in White metal. Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 27 March , 2007 Author Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Hello Ian, Here is a December 1914 dated photograph of a Private in the 7th Battalion in review order wearing the Battalion collar badges. Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Stewart, Nice detailed pictures that you have posted. Great to see! Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 27 March , 2007 Author Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Thanks Tom, Was there not some BW badges you were wanting to see? As I mentioned, my camera has died and I just have not got round to buying a new one yet. Let me know if there are any you are interested in and i will post them for you. Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Thank you Stewart, Those are great pictures. Like I said a would like to get hold of some examples of those badges so if any one knows of any going cheap!!! I dont know if it is just me, but there does not appear to be much information anywhere about the 7th Bn, I just might not be looking in the right places. I have a few postcard type pictures myself but most of them have been "pinched" of off items for sale on ebay etc. I dont know whether it would be OK to put them up on here or not. I will leave it for know and if no one says otherwise I will try to add them on tonight. Cheers Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Stewart, It would be great is you could post a picture of a 4th Black Watch and 6th Black Watch shoulder titles. In advance, Many Thanks Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Ok here are one or two pics I have on the computer of 7th Bn BW, I think most are pre war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Heres one of the 6th Bn BW for Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Not many people in this one but it shows Whinniehill camp 1910, I think that was somewhere around Burntisland but not 100% sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 I am just looking at your pictures again Stewart and realised that you havent said who the soldier is, do you know who he is? I often look at these old pictures of the 7th BW and try to see if I can see my grandad but as I dont know what he looked like at that age, I am not having much luck finding him Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 28 March , 2007 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2007 Hello Ian, Sorry to say I do not know his name either. His first name was Alex. The message on the back reads-''What do you think of our Alex? We have Willie home from Bristol for a few days. Wishing you a happy & prosperous New year from Father and Mother'' The post date is for Dec. 1914, which is only visible when you hold the card at an angle. The post mark has been stamped on the envelope the card was sent in and has been embossed on the card. The photo's you have posted are great. Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 28 March , 2007 Share Posted 28 March , 2007 Thanks for showing us the badge - for some reason they are particularly scarce compared to other pre war TA badges. This could well be down to the TA adopting the Regular pattern ones in 1914 and never going back to the 'sans sphinx' pattern. It is odd that they even adopted a badge without the sphinx as I cannot think of any other TA badge that dropped it from their own Territorial design. Still the TA Glosters would have had a challenge to do so I suppose...... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 28 March , 2007 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2007 Hello, I know in some units which have the Sphinx as part of there badge, it sites upon a scroll with the word 'Egypt' upon it and that in some cases the word is removed on the Territorial Version. In the case of the Black Watch, there was no word to remove, so I think they just did away with the Sphinx instead. Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 28 March , 2007 Share Posted 28 March , 2007 Absolutely - the Glosters, South and East Lancashires, Dorsetshires and the Lincolshire all removed the word Egypt but left the Sphinx intact. In fact I cannot think of any regiment other than the BW who had a sphinx without the title scroll. It is still odd the BW TA felt obliged to remove their Sphinx when plenty of other TA units kept their cap badge identical to the Regular one. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 9 April , 2007 Share Posted 9 April , 2007 I enclose a picture of my latest find at Camden Passage antique market on saturday. The same Lancessit spelling as the badge above. Kipling and King state their was a Lancesset spelling as well. The lugs have been pinched but a superb find as it was on a general bric a brac stall and not in the militaria market next door. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 9 April , 2007 Share Posted 9 April , 2007 I enclose a picture of my latest find at Camden Passage antique market on saturday. The same Lancessit spelling as the badge above. Kipling and King state their was a Lancesset spelling as well. The lugs have been pinched but a superb find as it was on a general bric a brac stall and not in the militaria market next door. Alan [/quote I wouldn't comment but you have made the same error twice. The motto is Nemo Me Impune Lacessit. No 'n'. Us ex BW men are very touchy about these things . I was 4/5 then 1st myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 9 April , 2007 Share Posted 9 April , 2007 How does it come about that Alan can find one of these badges in Camden market but I cant find one here in Fife? and it is not from lack of trying. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 10 April , 2007 Share Posted 10 April , 2007 oops sorry about the spurious 'n' . No offence to any BW intended! As to their scarcity I have only ever seen 3 before - one at Bosleys auction house, one in Ebay Australia and the one above. I found it purely by chance as it was on a bric-a-brac stall and the seller did not realise what they had and was selling it as a bog standard Scottish cap badge. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 10 April , 2007 Share Posted 10 April , 2007 Mac, Great picture of a 6th Bn Black Watch man. Do you know who it is? Alan:- Differing badges for the TF to its parent sponsor regiment was commonplace - and for one simple, but fundamental reason: their role was home defence; thus many of the embellishments gained on campaign were removed. Even the TF Royal Artillery cap badges did not have 'ubique' (everywhere) on them; this was replaced with laurels as they did not serve everywhere. Obviously, this would change when the unit made the Imperial Service Obligation. Also, the motto is the Order of the Thistle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Thistle Anyway, hope this helps Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwwebster Posted 10 April , 2007 Share Posted 10 April , 2007 Does anyone have photos of the uniform and badges for the 5th Bn (Angus & Dundee) The Black Watch. The above may or may not be 5th Bn Black Watch, but,- see my signature, - does show all his Sudan and S African medals. Orraverybest David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 10 April , 2007 Share Posted 10 April , 2007 David, To get you started, here is a link to Ian Edwards site on the 5th (Angus & Dundee) Bn The Black Watch (TF): http://www.royalhighlanders.co.uk/ Your Great Uncle gets a small mention in The Courier on the 2nd July 1915. 5 soldiers from the 5th BW were awarded the DCM: The Courier Fri 2 July 1915: Many Gallant soldiers Gained DCM Sgt J Webster, 5BW – for zeal and ability. The general bearing of this nco and the devotion to duty shown by him have set a fine example to the men. Killed in Action. Could be worth giving Stebie [Forum Member] a PM reference the Gazetting of the DCM. The Black Watch was well represented at this battle: 1st Bn - 1st Bde, 1st Division 2nd Bn - Bareilly Bde, Meerut Division 4th Bn (TF) - Bareilly Bde, Meerut Division 5th Bn (TF) - 24 Bde, 8th Division There are quite a lot of photos and details about the Black Watch in this book about Aubers Ridge: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Battle-Aubers-Ridg...4080&sr=8-1 Anything else I find I'll post Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 10 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2007 Hello, The photo of Sgt Webster shows him in the uniform of The Queens Own Cameron Highlanders. He has been a member of the 1st Battalion and has served in the 1898 Sudan Campaign, where his regiment took part in the battle at Omberman. He has also served in the 1899-1902 Boer War. His medals are from L-R Queen's Sudan Medal, Queen's South African Medal with clasps, King's South African Medal with 2 Clasps and the Khedive's Sudan Medal with 2 Clasps { The Atbara & Khartoum}. His collar badges would be a Thistle with a crown above, in white metal. As for the 5th Black Watch badges, I have scanned a photo of the shoulder title in a different thread. {If you click on my user name on the top left you will get onto my user page and them you can search form my previous posts, using the drop down list on the right} My great Uncle was also a Sergeant in the 5th Bn. he was with B company, from Forfar. Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 10 April , 2007 Share Posted 10 April , 2007 Stewart, Good effort. I could not find him on the Black Watch muster roll for South Africa and his uniform is not BW. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 10 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2007 Hello Tom, I checked the Angus Muster Roll, first edition, 1899-1900, but he is not listed. He might be in the second edition which was printed in about 1903. Then again if he was not from Angus, he won't be in it. I will ask a Pal who has a copy of the 2nd Edition anyway Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdwn1 Posted 11 April , 2007 Share Posted 11 April , 2007 Hi Tom I'm the pal with the 2nd Edition of the Muster Roll of Angus but he is not listed in it either. As this post is about the 7th BW I thought I would share a rare wartime named NCO/OR photo for you Fifers and researchers of the 7th Black Watch. The photo is pre 1916 from the Fife News and Coast Chronicle Almanac a book published at the beginning of 1916 and it might be worthwhile finding out if any in the photo were subsequently casualties. Any chance of identifying the ruined French town just behind the lines mentioned in the photo? Where were the 7th BW in 1915? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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