Richard Henry Ham

[Frajohn]

Aneurin

Thanks, and I'll certainly update here as and when I have any further information

Kind regards

John

[Frajohn]

Just a quick update

Par for the course, checked at PRO today and no records survived for any of the four Ham brothers. I did get the MICs for them, so added some knowledge, but nothing as to what happened with the Richard & Samuel mystery.

Will update when I have any more information

Regards

John

[PBI]

Lets hope the CWGC or the IWM have some Info.

[John_Hartley]

Thanks for the update, John. As Russell says, let's hope there's some info out there. CWGC original burial records still sounds like best bet.

John

[Frajohn]

John

While I was there I checked for the records of the other 7 members of the 8th Battlion Devonshires who are buried in the same row .... with the same result, 0 out of 11, the Gods were not with me today.

I have been looking at other burials in the Cemetery and have now asked for help on the location of three regiments on the " Units & Formations". The answers MIGHT help with this mystery?

Kind regards

John

[PBI]

As you rightly say John the CWGC Documents Should Hold the Key..if not, the last place i can think that may hold any further information will be the IWM departments of Records.I have just had a brief glance at Martin Middlebrooks Book "The Somme Battlefields",and on Page 145 He gives mentions that most of the Officer Burials in the Cemetery were killed elsewhere,but were bought here by the Men of their Battalions,and Buried in Citadel New Mil Cem,could this have happened to Samuel Hams Comrades who are Buried here ?...Regards...Russell.

[Peter Woodger]

There have been suggestions in this thread that Citadel New was a concentration cemetery, the only one open in the area and received at least one body found near Loos. The suggestion must have been made without any study of the cemetery records.

The characteristics of a concentration cemetery or concentration area within a cemetery are as follows.

1. Random dates within a Row

2. Random Battalions within a Row

3. A high Percentage of Unknowns.

The characteristics of a cemetery next to an Advanced Dressing Station are as follows.

1. Good date discipline within a row (a few days variation waiting for the burial party)

2. Men from battalions present in the area at the time of their death

3. Low ratio of unknowns.

The characteristics of Citadel New fit the ADT pattern not that of a concentration Cemetery. There are 363 named burials and 15 unknown.

The open cemetery on the Somme, for years after the Armistice was Serre Road Number 2. When Hurst wrote of it in 1929 it had 3362 burials whereas when it closed in 1934 it contained 7126 burials.

Middlebrook’s statement must not be interpreted to show that bodies were carried for miles looking for a quiet place for burial. When men, and particularly Officers were killed in or behind the front line the body was recovered where possible and taken back to the cemetery next to the ADT associated with that area of the front.

Whenever an anomaly in a cemetery is posted there is a knee jerk reaction to assume it is a post war concentration from afar without reference to the details of the burial within the cemetery. If there had ever been a late burial in Citadel New it would surely have been in Plot V Row G where there are only 2 burials and space for 19 rather than to choose a position in the middle of a Row in the middle of the Plot. It was also rare to find spaces in the rows in this type of cemetery

We new boys tend to respect high ranking posters but their opinions should bear some resemblance to fact if that respect is to be retained.

Peter

[clive_hughes]

It would be a Idea to contact the CWGC and the Imperial War Museum,as`both may well be able to tell you when Richard Ham was Found and Interred in His Final resting place.I myself had contacted the IWM regarding my Gt.Uncle,and they came up Trumps,actually telling me the Date and Location that my uncle was found and reinterred (1923).

Hello PBI,

Been following this thread and I just wondered what source the IWM quoted for reburial records?

You see, once upon a time I worked for the IWM Documents Dept. and can't remember any set of records that they held of this type. Of course, they may well have acquired new material since my day, though Official records such as these weren't usually offered or generally sought within the Department's collecting policy. The Printed Books people had complete sets of the old printed CWGC Registers and some standard literature, as well as books showing the patterns of the regt. badge designs to be used on stones, but extensive notes on reburials of individuals I never saw.

Awaiting enlightenment,

LST_164

[Frajohn]

Peter

Thanks for the input

I certainly agree with your thoughts regarding Citadel Cemetery.

Yesterday evening I started creating a spreadsheet detailing the men buried there. I obviously started with the row where Richard Ham is buried, V.E. 18 of the 19 men satisfy;

1. Good date discipline within a row (a few days variation waiting for the burial party)

2. Men from battalions present in the area at the time of their death

3. Low ratio of unknowns (There are none in row V.E)

I then started on row V.D and found that the majority satisfied those criterion. However, there are 5 or 6 ( I am at work so working from memory) who died September 1915, this concerned me as it is the same period as Richard Ham. So far two of the two regiments concerned appear to be have been in the immeadiate vicinity of the cemetery at the time of their death, waiting to hear about the 20th & 22nd Manchesters.

What is also interesting, and seems to support, in my mind, the idea that there is a 'Mystery' here is that those men buried in V.E were Killed in Action. Those men who Died of Wounds in the same battalions during the dates are buried in other cemeteries.

Will continue with the spreadsheets this evening.

Kind regards

John

[Peter Woodger]

Hi John

I have a complete register of Citadel New in Microsoft Works form. The burials between 01/07 and 30/11/ 1916 have their battalion, brigade and division listed. Those outside these dates have only their Regiment. If a copy of this would help then let me know an E mail and I will send same.

Peter.

[Frajohn]

Peter

Many thanks for your kind offer. I have sent a PM with my e-mail

Kind regards

John

[Peter Woodger]

Hi again John

The Kia versus Dow should not worry you. This was the site of an ADT so that one of three things happened to the men who arrived here alive.

1. Their scratches were dressed, they were given a cup of tea and a fag and sent back to the front

2. They were given the absolute minimum of treatment to fit them for the journey further back

3. Their pain was eased as much as possible and they were able to die in peace

The third group and any men that arrived dead would be buried in the adjacent cemetery and often all would be counted as Kia. Those of group 2 who eventually died would be buried further back and classed as Dow.

Address arrived will send

Peter

[John_Hartley]

waiting to hear about the 20th & 22nd Manchesters.

John

I saw your other thread and hadnt appreciated they were connected. Whilst I don't have either war diary, rest assured both lots of Mancs were definately in the vicinity of Fricourt at the dates.

John

[Frajohn]

John

Many thanks for the confirmation

This is not doing me any good I am supposed to be getting ready for my Loos visit next week, following the 8th Devons with my Linesman Software Trench Maps. Also there is that old chestnut 'work' to think about ..... work

Regards

John

[John_Hartley]

John

I'll let you get on, then. Have a good trip. See you at the database conference if you're still attending.

John

[PBI]

Hello PBI,

Been following this thread and I just wondered what source the IWM quoted for reburial records?

You see, once upon a time I worked for the IWM Documents Dept. and can't remember any set of records that they held of this type. Of course, they may well have acquired new material since my day, though Official records such as these weren't usually offered or generally sought within the Department's collecting policy. The Printed Books people had complete sets of the old printed CWGC Registers and some standard literature, as well as books showing the patterns of the regt. badge designs to be used on stones, but extensive notes on reburials of individuals I never saw.

Awaiting enlightenment,

LST_164

Hi LSt,sorry for late reply,the Person at the IWM who sent me the Details of My Gt.Uncles discovery and exhumation was one Colin Bruce,who was able also to send me a Map of High wood,complete with site of exhumation.This is all i can tell you.....

[PBI]

There have been suggestions in this thread that Citadel New was a concentration cemetery, the only one open in the area and received at least one body found near Loos. The suggestion must have been made without any study of the cemetery records.

The characteristics of a concentration cemetery or concentration area within a cemetery are as follows.

1. Random dates within a Row

2. Random Battalions within a Row

3. A high Percentage of Unknowns.

The characteristics of a cemetery next to an Advanced Dressing Station are as follows.

1. Good date discipline within a row (a few days variation waiting for the burial party)

2. Men from battalions present in the area at the time of their death

3. Low ratio of unknowns.

The characteristics of Citadel New fit the ADT pattern not that of a concentration Cemetery. There are 363 named burials and 15 unknown.

The open cemetery on the Somme, for years after the Armistice was Serre Road Number 2. When Hurst wrote of it in 1929 it had 3362 burials whereas when it closed in 1934 it contained 7126 burials.

Middlebrook’s statement must not be interpreted to show that bodies were carried for miles looking for a quiet place for burial. When men, and particularly Officers were killed in or behind the front line the body was recovered where possible and taken back to the cemetery next to the ADT associated with that area of the front.

Whenever an anomaly in a cemetery is posted there is a knee jerk reaction to assume it is a post war concentration from afar without reference to the details of the burial within the cemetery. If there had ever been a late burial in Citadel New it would surely have been in Plot V Row G where there are only 2 burials and space for 19 rather than to choose a position in the middle of a Row in the middle of the Plot. It was also rare to find spaces in the rows in this type of cemetery

We new boys tend to respect high ranking posters but their opinions should bear some resemblance to fact if that respect is to be retained.

Peter

This is a very good example of one of the many Burial anomalies of the Great War,had there been no doubts raised this very thought provoking and (sometime bewildering) thread would not be running,and it is good to see Healthy Debate from both new Bods and us Sweaty oiks...i await developments,and am certainly open minded to all and any views put forward... ....

[Frajohn]

John

As to the database conference I should be attending!! Especially as I said that I'd bring the projector!

Peter

Thank you for the cemetery file. As it turns out I cannot open it with ny of the software that I have. Any Ideas?

Kind regards

John

[Peter Woodger]

John

What spreadsheet software do you use, I may be able to convert Peter

[Frajohn]

Peter

Microsoft Excel

Kind regards

John

[Frajohn]

Peter

It works fine, certainly saved me a lot of time.

The information clearly shows that Richard' burial in this cemetery is very much a mystery

Thanks agin

John

[PBI]

CWGC do not hold any further Burial Details about Pte Ham other than the details held in their Database,so it seems that the next step will be to contact the IWM,who may be able to supply a Map reference as to where Pte Hams remains were found.

[Frajohn]

Hi

I had written to both the CWGC and IWM, but as yet I have not received a reply from either. John Hartley did warn me that this could take up to three months.

Kind regards

John

[PBI]

Hi John,

I contacted CWGC this Morning on an unrelated matter,and got talking to one of the Staff in the Records Dept,and He was adamant that they do not Hold records of The Graves Registration Burial parties,who originally carried out the Battlefield Searches.I didnt catch His Name,but He seemed to think that the IWM may have further information..The Man from the IWM is called Colin Bruce,He was very helpful,as He supplied me with a Map Reference Detailing the location and Date where my Gt.Uncle was exhumed in 1923.

[Frajohn]

Hi PBI

I still feel that Richard Ham would not have been buried in the place where he is. There seems to me that there is no reason why one plot in Citadel Cemetery would have been left 'Vacant' for two years or more.

From the spreadsheet supplied by Peter, the rows were filled on an almost day by day basis with the men who died in that area. Also on the day Richard's brother, Samuel, died the plot where Richard is was the next one to be used. [hope that makes sense]. Instead he is posted as missing on Thiepval Memorial and the grave is left vacant for X years until his brother's body is exhumed 90+ miles away.

As unlikely as it might be I think that it is in fact Samuel who is buried in Citadel Cemetery and Richard's body was never found and should be remembered on Loos Memorial. Can it ever be proven? No, it can only be disproved by a record stating that the very unlikely as set out above happened.

Kind regards

John