PBI Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 http://ww1cemeteries.com/ww1frenchextension/terlincthun.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 I have to again say John,that there is NO mystery here You may, of course, prove to be right but the co-incidences surely make it a good bit of research for Frajohn. And, if anyone wants me to stake my colours to the mast on this, then I'm happy to say I think there may well be a mix-up of names here and the grave at Citadel is really Samuel's. And, in consequence, it's Richard that's still missing. I believe the facts may fit that scenario much better than what we currently have. Wouldnt it be great to prove it one way or the other. Now, how does Frajohn best go about it. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 http://www.cwgc.co.uk/ He can Try asking the Chaps at the Above Web Site,as they seem to have lots of experience in the matter of correcting Errors made by CWGC,plus Frajohn can contact the IWM,and CWGC,and as we have agreed,a good look through the War Diarys,i must admit John,that the More i look at it the More it is a bit Odd,but why isnt Richards name on the Loos Memorial ???......the plot thickens,you are right it would be Great if we could correct an error...maybe frajohn could have a word with Terry Denham,i am sure he would give what help He can....if you a correct John,i will personally drive you and frajohn over to Citadel Cemetery,to see the error corrected....regards Russell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 ..that the More i look at it the More it is a bit Odd,but why isnt Richards name on the Loos Memorial ???......the plot thickens,you are right it would be Great if we could correct an error...maybe frajohn could have a word with Terry Denham,i am sure he would give what help He can....if you a correct John,i will personally drive you and frajohn over to Citadel Cemetery,to see the error corrected....regards Russell. I've only just managed to get my head around this and have to say that it seems more than just a little bit odd. It will be very interesting to see how frajohn gets on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 John I've had a think about this overnight and consulted with a couple of Pals. I think the only way forward here is for you to write to CWGC, as I mentioned earlier, asking if they have the original burial details for Richard. If it was me, I would set out the issues as above and also ask about original burial details for Lavis and Lewis, the guys buried either side of him. This may or may not prove anything. If Richard's body was moved from near Loos then the matter is resolved. If Lavis & Lewis had also been then that might account for why Richard has been plonked in the middle of 1916 deaths. If not, then you may still not be any further on by way of proof but you would certainly have a probability of an entirely different scenario. It may also be worth you trying to track down local newspapers to see if there were any reports of Richard's death. Unlikely in this case, but possibly there was a letter from the officer or a mate mentioning a burial. I wonder if Richard and Samuel were related. Both enlisted at Cardiff - samuel was born in the city, Richard at Looe in Cornwall. Good luck with this - and don't forget to keep us posted. Drop me a PM if you want to chat. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Russell Sorry, I was typing whilst you were. Terry was one of the Pals I asked for advice. If I'm right (and we can prove it), then we'd be wanting the headstone at Citadel changed to a "Known unto God" - as we can never prove that it IS Samuel. We'd then want Richard's name put on Loos. But let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 John,on the subject of anomalous Burials do you know what the Final upshot is on the John Kipling Case ?,i know that CWGC have agreed that it IS His remains in St.Marys ADS,but i have just finished the Holts Book MY BOY JACK..and their case seems pretty convincing.John if there is a mistake with Richards commemoration i will fire up the Jalopy and its off to the Somme for us 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Russell No I don't - but I seem to recall there was thread not too long back about it. Then again, at my age, the memory starts to play tricks. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Hi John,Just been exploring the Kipling Thread..very interesting as Colonel Klink would say (Hogans Heroes),if you can remember this programme,we are indeed aged... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 (Hogans Heroes),if you can remember this programme,we are indeed aged... I go back as far as Muffin the Mule - in the days before it became illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Ah,the Days of Bakelite Radios and B and W Tele,I Bow before your Mighty Wisdom Oh Aged One. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Phillips Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 "On our way home!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frajohn Posted 14 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Hi John & PBI PBI is most probably correct in that the reason Richard Ham is buried in The Citadel Cemetery is the result of battlefield clearance after the war, or similar. However, it is possible that he is wrong, and it is that possibility that intrigues me. I should imagine that any of us who research this period are amazed at the level of coincidence which we see during that research. As John H has pointed out, row V.E at the Citadel is the real mystery. During a period when the 8th Devonshires were in the trenches, near Mansel Copse. 5 of their men are killed. In date order four are buried at Fricourt, just a couple of miles away, in plots 12, 14, 15 & 16. The man (Samuel Ham) who, chronologically should be in plot 13 is instead remembered on Thiepval Memorial. Meanwhile, plot no. 13 is left unfilled until sometime much later when the remains of Richard Henry Ham are brought from the Loos area and buried there. There is the possibility that all of those men were later burials, however according to the CWGC history of the cemetery “The great majority of the burials were carried out from field ambulances before the Battles of the Somme” The war diary for the 8th does not give any further information, the Battalion history states that the 8th and 9th were back in the trenches, taking turn and turn about opposite Fricourt. I will write to the CWGC and IWM to see if they have any information that might help. I think that I need to visit one of our dealers next week, who’s premises are just around the corner from Kew! Although am in the Somme area in June, but visiting Loos for a few days at the end of February, most likely take a drive to Fricourt then. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Evening John,just to add more coincidences to this case,Samuel and richard both enlisted in cardiff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frajohn Posted 14 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Hi It goes on ... Richard was born in Cornwall. Samuel in Cardiff. The only Samuel in Cardiff in 1901,had a Father William, who was born in ............. Cornwall Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Let's not forget the dangers of over-speculating. OK, now I've got that off me chest, may I speculate a bot more? The only Richard H Ham I can find on FreeBMD is a Richard Henry Ham - birth registered at Liskeard in 1883. Liskeard is the registration place that covers Looe, where SDGW notes our Richard was born. In 1881, a William Henry Ham gets married in the Liskeard area. In 1862, there's the birth at Liskeard of William Henry Ham. Possible to suppose that Henry is a family name and it's passed on to the first son (my middle name is like this). So, speculate away Pals. Could Samuel & Richard be brothers? I think, John, you have to add a service record look-up at Kew to your list on these two. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 More... quick trawl through the 1901 Census suggests that they are NOT brothers. However, the family living in Cardiff have Cornish connections including a young woman (presumably a daughter) born in Looe (same as Richard. Cousins? J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 John If this is a coincidence its a hell of a one. I am not sure how this matter should be pursued...maybe as suggested earlier the scenario should be rolled out in front of the CWGC and see what their initial thoughts are. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Listen this may or may not interest ? i have just come in from my usual wednesday night get together (read drink) with my cousin Rob , And read this post. Although not the same it is similar ? a couple of years ago a good mate of mine came over from Western Australia. In advance he sent me a copy of the battalion history in which his Grandad fought. before he arrived I had plotted the complete movements of his grandads batt. and over 9 days we went to every hamlet , battlefield , location and area where his grandad had been. From where he stepped off the train at Thiennes to where he was wounded at VB, we did the lot. My mate also asked me if we could visit the grave of his grandmothers brother who was buried near Amiens ? It turned out he was a stretcher bearer, also wounded at VB. I mentioned it takes 2 men to carry a stretcher ? and what was the name of the other bloke ? My mate knew the other blokes name , So i looked it up, and was surprised to find he was buried at ...... Rouen ? we eventually did make it to pay our respects to both of them . But how come they were buried so far apart ? allthough they were wounded at the same time ? and the only explanations we can think of is .... perhaps the one sent to Rouen was expected to live ? and the one sent to Amiens (or near Amiens) was not ? whats your thoughts on this ? "MO" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 15 February , 2007 Share Posted 15 February , 2007 Hi Mo,i expect that the Triage system must have been in Operation,the Man sent to Rouen was maybe expected to live after Treatment,as you rightly say,and the Man Buried Near Amiens,was too badly wounded to survive the Journey to Rouen,or He too was for Rouen,but he died at the Field Hospital or the Railhead before He could be moved.?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 15 February , 2007 Share Posted 15 February , 2007 If this is a coincidence its a hell of a one. Yeah. Sometimes you just get "a feeling in your water", don't you. But, really musnt get ahead of ourselves without any evidence. However, this is t'other John's project and I'm going to leave him to it (apart from wandering in offering pearls of advice, of course ). I'm now off back researching more dead Stopfordians. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aneurin Posted 18 February , 2007 Share Posted 18 February , 2007 I've only just discovered this thread. It appears that Richard Henry ("Harry") Ham and Samuel Ham were brothers. In April 1915 the Cardiff press refers to four Ham brothers serving in the army: Richard and Samuel (Devons), Joseph (Warwicks) and Elijah (Somerset LI). Samuel enlisted at the beginning of the war and lived with Joseph and Elijah in Walker Road, Splott, Cardiff - presumably the parental home. Richard joined up in November 1914. His death was reported in the press on 26/10/1915. He was described as 33, married with 4 children and living at 4 Cathays Terrace, Cathays, Cardiff. An "In Memorium" notice for him dated 26/9/1916 refers to the Battle of Loos. I hope this is of some help, though bear in mind newspaper reports cannot always be relied on for their accuracy. Aneurin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frajohn Posted 20 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Aneurin Many thanks for this information, another piece of the puzzle. Been away for a few days and have only just seen your reply. Hopefull I can get to the PRO on Wednesday and see if any of their records have survived. I would really appreciate if there is any way you could let me have a copy of the newspaper report, obviously I would cover any of your costs. Is there any other mention of Samuel. Again, thanks for your information Kind regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aneurin Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 John I'm sorry but I don't have copies of the press reports. Some years ago I made notes from two Cardiff newspapers. I did not attempt to make exact copies. I've checked my original records for the info below. South Wales Daily News 28/04/1915 has the info on the 4 brothers including photos. Both Richard (Harry) and Samuel are described as serving in the 8 Devons at Aldershot. SWDN 26/10/1915 reports Harry's death on 25 Sept. in France with 8 Devons. 33. Wife and 4 children at 4 Cathays Terrace. SWDN 26/09/1916 Several men are listed under an In Memorium notice for Loos, including Harry Ham on 25/09/15. Western Mail 2/06/16 Casualty list: LCpl S Ham 11474 Devons (Cardiff). That's all I have I'm afraid. I'd be interested to learn of your discoveries at the PRO. From memory, a number of men from the Cardiff area served in this battalion. Aneurin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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