Soldier's In Famous Somme Film/photo

[TEW]

He enlisted on September 2nd 1915 for RH & RFA (Woolwich)

His regimental number was 43180

His medical category was "a"

We have a certificate of "Transfer to Reserve" on Demobilisation dated March 29th 1919

He was a driver in the 16th Division, (16th Div Amm Column)

He was awarded a Galant Conduct award in the Field of Bussu on 21st March 1918

I have added 3 photos.

Tina, I have to ask how you know the above snippets of information, do you have some original documents?? In the absence of any online records I wonder how you know the date he enlisted and his medical category.

As Craig said, facial recognition has been used before and certainly in one case everyone was happy that a positive identification had been made of the man carrying the wounded man along the trench.

Further research proved the man wasn't in France at the time. From that all we can say is facial recognition systems (or the human operator) are not up to scratch with the job.

I have looked through the 16th Div Ammunition Column diary for the whole of 1918 and there is no mention of Dixon. in itself that is not surprising as drivers, gunners, saddlers rarely get a mention. The diary does however mention a group of men in Feb 1918 who received a commendation parchment and another Driver who received a Croix de Guerre. There are also 3 Courts Martial with named men and 2 Field punishments No. 1.

There are no instances of a Mentioned in Despatches which is what I suspect he received. that should be in the London Gazette but I can't find it in there either. It may be that the search function is not able to find the entry. As you said he received it in Bussu and the 16th DAC were in Bussu at that time I don't doubt the statement but it would be interesting to find out what he received and what for.

The 16th DAC also sent men out on detachment to Labour Companies, RFA brigades and I can't be sure if the same men returned to the 16th DAC. One of the RFA Brigade diaries (still within the 16th division) has a long list of killed, wounded, missing for 21/3/18, so again the date and place you mention seems to add up.

He may have been given the award for action around 22/3/18 but the award may have been given some months later, or he may have been given the award on that date for something he did months before.

As I said, there is a likeness but I can't place the 16th DAC in the right area for the time frame. If you wish, you could write to the Imperial War Museum who apparently have on file about 80 identifications of the man, all identified by decendants. In the mean time I'd still be interested to find out where your enlistment date etc come from.

TEW

[ss002d6252]

The award he received may have been a MID as above or it could have been a brigade/divisional award that some units issued themselves.

Craig

[TEW]

Craig,

The 16th DAC diary has this entry for 24th Feb 1918. Would this fit the bill as a brigade/divisional award that some units issued themselves.

Not a whiff of any MIDs in diary which makes me think that was the award.

I'm not sure if the 16th DAC wasn't responsible for supplying men to the Brigade level RFA units as needed, possibly as a stop gap until other reinforcements could be found but there seems to be a lot of detachments moving about. Someone being sent to 177th Brigade RFA for a month may well still think of themselves as being a 16th DAC man.

Wondering if his award is via one of the Brigade RFA units and not directly 16th DAC, 177th and 180th diaries are on Ancestry but not easy reading.

TEW

[ss002d6252]

Craig,

The 16th DAC diary has this entry for 24th Feb 1918. Would this fit the bill as a brigade/divisional award that some units issued themselves.

Not a whiff of any MIDs in diary which makes me think that was the award.

I'm not sure if the 16th DAC wasn't responsible for supplying men to the Brigade level RFA units as needed, possibly as a stop gap until other reinforcements could be found but there seems to be a lot of detachments moving about. Someone being sent to 177th Brigade RFA for a month may well still think of themselves as being a 16th DAC man.

Wondering if his award is via one of the Brigade RFA units and not directly 16th DAC, 177th and 180th diaries are on Ancestry but not easy reading.

parch.jpg

TEW

I would say so, the top of the page mentions ''Divisional parchment certificates. The awards I've seen pictures of were usually some form of certificate.

If they were on detachment then any information may have been sent back to the parent unit who decided to make the award.

Craig

[TinaHughes]

Tina, I have to ask how you know the above snippets of information, do you have some original documents?? In the absence of any online records I wonder how you know the date he enlisted and his medical category.

As Craig said, facial recognition has been used before and certainly in one case everyone was happy that a positive identification had been made of the man carrying the wounded man along the trench.

Further research proved the man wasn't in France at the time. From that all we can say is facial recognition systems (or the human operator) are not up to scratch with the job.

I have looked through the 16th Div Ammunition Column diary for the whole of 1918 and there is no mention of Dixon. in itself that is not surprising as drivers, gunners, saddlers rarely get a mention. The diary does however mention a group of men in Feb 1918 who received a commendation parchment and another Driver who received a Croix de Guerre. There are also 3 Courts Martial with named men and 2 Field punishments No. 1.

There are no instances of a Mentioned in Despatches which is what I suspect he received. that should be in the London Gazette but I can't find it in there either. It may be that the search function is not able to find the entry. As you said he received it in Bussu and the 16th DAC were in Bussu at that time I don't doubt the statement but it would be interesting to find out what he received and what for.

The 16th DAC also sent men out on detachment to Labour Companies, RFA brigades and I can't be sure if the same men returned to the 16th DAC. One of the RFA Brigade diaries (still within the 16th division) has a long list of killed, wounded, missing for 21/3/18, so again the date and place you mention seems to add up.

He may have been given the award for action around 22/3/18 but the award may have been given some months later, or he may have been given the award on that date for something he did months before.

As I said, there is a likeness but I can't place the 16th DAC in the right area for the time frame. If you wish, you could write to the Imperial War Museum who apparently have on file about 80 identifications of the man, all identified by decendants. In the mean time I'd still be interested to find out where your enlistment date etc come from.

TEW

Hello TEW, thank you for your help, I gathered the information from records that we have here at home, I've attached copies of them, hopefully you can make out what they say.

Tina

[depaor01]

Seems the list of likely men is narrowing...

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-face-of-war-how-a-finglas-man-may-be-the-answer-to-a-100-year-old-mystery-1.3633535%3fmode=amp

[TEW]

On 18/01/2011 at 09:46, Kristof said:

There is by all accounts that WW1 image hanging on the wall of the Erin's Isle GAA Club clearly labled as Charles Brennan.

Would be interesting if this image could be posted on forum.

TEW

[ss002d6252]

Without getting in to politics over the details I do feel that the comment in the article that "John Brennan suspects a historic reluctance in Britain to accept his ancestor as the face in the film, because he didn’t fit the narrative. Not only was he Irish, he had brothers in the 1920s IRA. In other respects too, he was not the ideal hero." somewhat troubling and doesn't help any issues with identification. There has never been any need for anything to fit a historical narrative - it's not as though there has been any official attempts to suppress anyone's involvement.

 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

I'd also like to see what more ties the man other than being in the area at the right time (as where all the other candidates).

Quote

Charles Brennan, Soldier 48408, from “Finglay (sic) Dublin”, who had served with the Royal Garrison Artillery, which was indeed present in Beaumont Hamel

 

I think the number should actually be #48048. 14 Siege Battery.

 

Edit: Medical records show he was with 91 Heavy Battery in early 1916.

Craig

Edited 20 September , 2018 by ss002d6252

[TEW]

Well, The Irish Times has got his number wrong, it should be Charles Brennan 48048 RGA. Medal roll says 14 Siege Battery. Useful of the Irish Times to say that the RGA were present at Beaumont but was Brennan's unit?

 

He also has 2 MH106 records;

MH106/1231 19 General Hospital Jan 1916 Tonsillitis, 91 Heavy Battery RGA

MH106/1808 Catterick 11/5/1918. Can't make out the RGA unit - transcribed as 'Ra & Tc'

 

There's a Patrick Brennan with number 48047, perhaps a brother?

 

Quote

From Irish Times

 

Lee notes the existence of a court martial record from 1918 for one “C. Brennan”, on charges of being absent without leave and “violence to superiors”.

 

 

Nothing in 'All UK, Naval and Military Courts Martial Registers, 1806-1930'

TEW

[TEW]

Oh dear, I hope Matthew Lee hasn't assumed DCM is always a District Court Martial as Brennan had a DCM gazetted 4/3/1918.

TEW

[depaor01]

Old topic I know but interestingly, Guest Roger Smither of the IWM above, mentions that the man carrying was believed by the filmmakers to be a "Heavy Artillery Man". The IWM themselves have located a contemporary  Irish newspaper article that seems to inch towards an identification of the man:

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-face-of-war-how-a-finglas-man-may-be-the-answer-to-a-100-year-old-mystery-1.3633535

 

Dave

[Skipman]

Brennan won D.C.M. in March 1918

 

Why would an R.G.A. man be in the front line on 1/7/1916?

 

Mike

[depaor01]

35 minutes ago, Skipman said:

Why would an R.G.A. man be in the front line on 1/7/1916?

Not sure of why an RGA man wouldn't be. Were they not?

Dave

 

[Skipman]

8 hours ago, depaor01 said:

Not sure of why an RGA man wouldn't be. Were they not?

Dave

 

 

I'm not an expert Dave but I thought Siege Batteries and the like were hundreds, or thousands of yards, behind the front line shelling German batteries and selected targets. I'm happy to be put right on that.

 

Mike

[Skipman]

There's another thread 'on the go' here that has interesting and useful information. Click

 

We're a bit of a way off positive ID yet, are we not?

 

Mike

[Skipman]

I think 14 SB, were in 36th HAG of VIII. Corps on 1/7/1916, north of Beaumont Hamel, so in right place. (If I have units correct?)

 

Mike

[depaor01]

13 hours ago, Skipman said:

 

I'm not an expert Dave but I thought Siege Batteries and the like were hundreds, or thousands of yards, behind the front line shelling German batteries and selected targets. I'm happy to be put right on that.

 

Mike

Ah. OK. I posted the link for info without any opinion of its veracity. Every mickle makes a muckle as they say.

 

I actually hadn't any idea the batteries were so far away from the front, so thanks for that.

13 hours ago, Skipman said:

We're a bit of a way off positive ID yet, are we not?
 

We certainly are, but I'd go as far as to say another piece in the puzzle.

[depaor01]

12 hours ago, Skipman said:

I think 14 SB, were in 36th HAG of VIII. Corps on 1/7/1916, north of Beaumont Hamel, so in right place. (If I have units correct?)

Troop movements were never my strong point. Hopefully someone might come along shortly to confirm or deny!

[Skipman]

1 hour ago, depaor01 said:

Troop movements were never my strong point. Hopefully someone might come along shortly to confirm or deny!

 

I hope so, as they are not particularly my strong point either. Again, I'm not certain my theory of RGA men not being in the front line is correct. I dare say they had observers etc.

 

Mike

[Moonraker]

IWM summary of research

 

"The man's name was Walter Henry Lydamore, born 1894 at Tilbury, Essex. He served with the Royal Garrison Artillery and was posted to the V29 Heavy Trench Mortar Battery."

 

Moonraker

Edited 24 June , 2019 by Moonraker

[TEW]

Lydamore is the front stretcher carrying man, also seen at the back of the trench during the 'piggy back' footage.

 

One of the problems with the three bits of footage and the Brooks photo is establishing that everyone is talking about the same man. IWM have come up with.

 

Man in Cardigan = Tom Spencer. Also seen at rear of trench with Lydamore during the 'piggy back' footage. Also photographed by Brooks carrying the same wounded man.

 

Piggy Back Carry = The man that seems to get the most interest and has the most 'positive identifications' attached to him.

Charles Brennan RGA has been put forward as an ID. Brennan was in Egypt in Jan 1916.

 

Ankle Holding Man = Seen only in Brooks' photograph along with Spencer (Man in Cardigan). Spencer & Ankle Holding Man seem to be the two rescuers seen collecting the wounded man in the footage.

 

Front stretcher carrying man = As Moonraker says Walter Henry Lydamore, 46379 . He has a service record on FMP. One sheet shows he moved from 46 Siege Battery to 29 V TM 21/5/1916. 29 V TM being 29th Division Trench Mortars.

 

Wounded man - is from 29th Division.

 

Malins' footage shot within 29th division area. IE Jacob's Ladder. However, Seaforths from 4th Division also in some shots EG with Lydamore.

TEW