War Memorial For Sale

[John_Hartley]

Re Ashe,

16th Manchesters on 21 Mar 18. Would/could that be Manchester Hill?

Roxy

Ashe was commanding "A" Coy in the right front line.

"B" was on the left with "C" in support. Battalion HQ and "D" was at the Manchester Hill Redoubt.

Ashe's company was quickly overrun with news coming at 8.30 am of it being surrounded.

My Grandad's unit, 17/Manc, was in support of the 16th (about a mile behind the redoubt if I have my geography correct) in the main battle zone. They were also hit hard and not many of "A" Coy, at their Bn HQ, managed to get away. Fortunately Tom was one them who did.

John

[Kath]

Have had reply from Martin Edwards thanking me for ALL the information from ebay.

Kath.

[John_Hartley]

i think its a shame that its not where it was originally installed There could however be any number of reasons why its not there today

Probably now one of those £million+ houses.

Isn't this thread handing the vendor a nice little easy, free, package of added value with which to enhance his or her item?

Possibly, Gwyn. Must see if I can get a percentage.

[Alan Lines]

It would be nice if it ended up where it belonged, but that's the question, where does it belong? I know the current high bidder well, he splits medal groups.

[Roxy]

Alan,

It will be difficult to split this!

But I think that I get your point

Roxy

[Coldstreamer]

It would be nice if it ended up where it belonged, but that's the question, where does it belong? I know the current high bidder well, he splits medal groups.

I spend my time putting them back together again - always a shame when some one does this esp to make money

[redbarchetta]

Saw this when it appeared on Ebay and wondered when the thread would appear on here!!

'Tis fairly awful that this is circulating the commercial world, but the school probably closed at the same time that they were melting WW1 medals down for scrap and nobody was interested - so just be thankful this wasn't melted down too!!

It will, eventually, find its way to a good home (and knowing Ebay the price it will hit will be high, so will hopefully be bought by a local collector rather than your medal-splitting dealer anyway).

Nice to think of it going to a Cheshire/Manchester regiment collector, so at least it will reside with an appreciative audience - possibly better than being put up in some dusty corridor of a municipal building, forgotten and unseen.

Jim

[rollofhonour]

Just downloaded as much as I could and have formatted it onto the www.roll-of-honour.com web site under Cheshire. Not the best way for a memorial to go.

See http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Cheshire/Hal...ouseSchool.html

[chrisharley9]

Just downloaded as much as I could and have formatted it onto the www.roll-of-honour.com web site under Cheshire. Not the best way for a memorial to go.

See http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Cheshire/Hal...ouseSchool.html

Hi Martin

saves me doing it

Chris

[Doug Johnson]

A check of the Hale memorial http://www.carlscam.com/ Gives some info on those missing from the Roll of Honour list.

eg Elliott G E 2/lt DWR also an H Turner.

Doug

[Dragon]

I am a little puzzled by the suggestion that a plaque such as this would be better in private ownership rather than exhibited in public. If the purpose of a memorial is to ensure that at least some people make a passing thought to the names thereon, its display in a public building is likely to ensure that more people will pass by and see it.

I admit to knowing nothing about trading in memorabilia because it doesn’t interest me. From my perspective, a prospective purchaser will only bid on any item if it has some value for him or her. There’d be no point in attempting to buy it otherwise. I don’t know what the value of this plaque would be and I’m not going to second-guess the reasons behind a hope to purchase it. I don’t know whether an individual or a business will end up owning it and I don’t know what the forum would consider appropriate or inappropriate use. It would, however, be valued.

I am from the area the plaque originates, though I don't live there. There are any number of vast houses which could have housed a school down Arthog Road and similar roads in Hale. I imagine that there are very few people, if any, who would remember the school now, but there are local names recorded. Therefore, I would think that there are more likely to be passers-by who would notice the names and to whom the surnames might vaguely mean something if it were displayed in a local public building in Hale or Altrincham, such as the library (which is well used) or, less convincingly, a local church, or even the foyer of the local landmark pub (now a residential development) which is opposite the end of Park Road, which is the continuation of Arthog Road and which the lads would have known. Hale lost its civic heart when the drill hall in Ashley Road was demolished to make way for an ugly hotel and supermarket.

The large, elegant, Edwardian properties with gardens which comprise much of Hale are now steadily being demolished and replaced by vast architectural horrors called apartments which look like the malicious joke of a giant let loose with architectural Lego. They are shoeboxes adorned with parapets and turrets, over-ornate bargeboards, over-detailed window glass, frilly fascias and gothic finials and they have no grass. They will be mocked by future generations who will wonder how humans lived here. Urban heritage here is dying daily under the advance of growling 360-degree excavators and the relentless tearing of earth and trees.

The suggestion I made yesterday, and then erased because it seemed irrelevant in the direction the thread was taking, was that a locally-working developer might appropriately be approached with a suggestion that the plaque could be bought and donated to the community as a gesture towards retaining some sort of local heritage in the area. A history of the men recorded could be worked up. It might remind the users of the wine bars, restaurants and nail-parlours that once upon a time, real people lived in Hale and the quaint little commuter station was once filled with the smoke from the trains that took its young men away to their fate.

Gwyn

[Owen D]

What ever happens to it at least it is better than ending up in a skip like other memorials have.

Until it was put on eBay many of us on this Forum had never heard of those men.

Now they "live" on Martin's website.

So some good has come of it.

[John_Hartley]

the plaque could be bought and donated to the community as a gesture towards retaining some sort of local heritage in the area.

Couldnt agree more. Exactly my reasons for contacting the North Cheshire Family History Society and the village Civic Society (my earlier posts refer). Both should have contact with local folk who have deepish pockets.

John

[ianw]

Whilst hoping that a local history group would be minded to buy the item, I wouldn't think that they could get their act together in time or perhaps care quite enough.

The current Ebay highest bidder has spent around £2500 on Lancashire Great War items since early July so I suspect he will have the resources to win this item and appreciate it - though maybe in solitary splendour. Ho hum !

[dycer]

I might be being naive here but following from Gwyn's point and the information contained on the Memorial as described.

It would appear to have been made originally as a result of public subscription.

How can an individual claim to own and sell such an item?

As regards Hale rembering its War Dead.I recall participating in a Remberance Sunday Parade there in the 1970's as a member of the Mercian Volunteers.

George

[Roxy]

Owen,

Good point, well presented!

Roxy

[Dragon]

Talking to local history people and the local archives department, it isn't so much that they don't care, but that they simply don't have anywhere to put the things. Modern library buildings don't have wall space. One local library already has a batch of memorials and plaques in storage. Regrettable as this is, there is nothing else they can do with them.

Hale is now in Trafford. The interest and focus they have in the world wars is directed towards the IWMN, and this applies to some funding too.

If anyone feels strongly, has a few minutes and time allows on the auction, an email to the local newspaper might possibly be worthwhile. My sources suggest the Sale and Altrincham Messenger.

Gwyn

[dycer]

Gwyn,

To be honest I've not opened the E-Bay Thread so assumed it is an individual who is selling it.

You are not suggesting that it is the L.A. that is trying to sell it?

I take the point on space,progress,etc but it seems a bit of a cop out clause,surely they have an ongoing responsibilty to previous residents.

George

[Dragon]

I don't know who's selling it. I was just responding to a comment earlier that maybe the local history people don't care enough.

I talked to various people. They regret that these things can't be displayed but they just don't know where to put them. So rather than throwing them away or selling them, they've stored them. They don't like merely storing them and they know it's important to local people and community memory, but.... The bottom line is that apparently some of the local libraries would not be faint with gratitude at being given yet another plaque.

I think that one problem is the lack of public spaces such as halls - yes, the communities' drill halls included - where there would be suitable walls, space and passing traffic to appreciate the memorials.

Gwyn

[redbarchetta]

Gwyn,

That was exactly my point re being forgotten in some dusty corridor of a municipal building. If the LA had this, in all honesty it is not going to be placed on a nice stone surround on Hale town hall front wall, it will end up hung half way down corridor F on the second floor next to the office for paper clip deliveries ("two lorry loads, actually") and will not prompt anybody's memories with the exception of the paper clip delivery guy the first time he walks in and never again.

In a private collection it is at least safe, alongside medals and other items relating to the regiment/area, and will, in due course be sold again - the LA are perfectly able to buy it on any of these transitions, as and when they take more of an interest, but in the meantime it will be looked after and, as Ian said, cherished, albeit only by one person at a time.

Jim

[Rodge Dowson]

It won't be the last and it certainly isn't the first. I have tried to save ones before and have involved the War Memorials Trust & IWM in the past but they still get away. The last one I tried to save was Pendleton Co-Op large roll of honour but it went for £600.00 and the vendor would not tell us to whom it was sold!!!!!

As long as they don't end up in a theme pub!

We have to do what we can to save this heritage, the seller should have tried to find a local home (donated it) with the council, libraries or musuems services or a school in the area. I hope what the vendor gains financially is out-weighed by there moral responsibility.

Rodge

[Rodge Dowson]

War Memorials should be and were designed as a focal point of remembrance for everyone in the public domain who wished to remember..................

[Dragon]

A library is only one suggestion and since making my initial post this morning, I gather that the likelihood is that they wouldn't be able to put it on display at the moment. (Hale doesn't have a town hall.)

However, while a local organisation such as the library owns a plaque, albeit in storage, if Harry's great-grand-daughter knows he lived in a particular area, she can contact local history sources who can tell her whether he's on a plaque and where the plaque can be viewed by arrangement. Once it goes into a private collector's home, it's just chance whether it emerges again. Unless of course there's a register of who owns which plaques and who's willing to allow people to see them on request. Is there? I don't know.

I'm sure a lot of us have been shown material and plaques which are in local authority safe-keeping until such time as an appropriate home or display point is found. I certainly have. Some 'custodians' will send pictures to interested parties. One person I talked to this morning told me of an authority which gets out and displays these plaques and other memorabilia for the public to enjoy on an annual (or other) basis.

Just to be clear, I have no issues with people who wish to collect and care for material, whether it's badges or plaques or whatever. It's just that collecting is something which doesn't interest me personally.

Gwyn

[rollofhonour]

Hi Martin

saves me doing it

Chris

Have found as much as I am going to on this one. Helped with the officers as I have found photographs and details from corroborating sources like du Ruvigny's.

Wadham House School, Hale - Researched

[dycer]

A library is only one suggestion and since making my initial post this morning, I gather that the likelihood is that they wouldn't be able to put it on display at the moment. (Hale doesn't have a town hall.)

However, while a local organisation such as the library owns a plaque, albeit in storage, if Harry's great-grand-daughter knows he lived in a particular area, she can contact local history sources who can tell her whether he's on a plaque and where the plaque can be viewed by arrangement. Once it goes into a private collector's home, it's just chance whether it emerges again. Unless of course there's a register of who owns which plaques and who's willing to allow people to see them on request. Is there? I don't know.

I'm sure a lot of us have been shown material and plaques which are in local authority safe-keeping until such time as an appropriate home or display point is found. I certainly have. Some 'custodians' will send pictures to interested parties. One person I talked to this morning told me of an authority which gets out and displays these plaques and other memorabilia for the public to enjoy on an annual (or other) basis.

Just to be clear, I have no issues with people who wish to collect and care for material, whether it's badges or plaques or whatever. It's just that collecting is something which doesn't interest me personally.

Gwyn

Gwyn,

My observations were directed at the Seller,certainly not you.

George