seen on ebay

[Coldstreamer]

Please Roxy,

you are joking? surely??

Better turned into a clock than thrown on the rubbish tip - at least its still around

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

Your obvious glee at obtaining this death plate is in my opinion obscene. I come from a family of soldiers some who fought and died in both world wars and i have their medals they were earnt with blood and i would not part with them for any amount of money. I trust you will try and find living members of this mans family and ask them if they would like this plate as a reminder of this mans awfull death and sacrifice.

You have to remember that there are lots of other hobbies that many many people too agree are in bad taste.

Roland.

[steve white]

such has?

[Soren]

dressing up as Nazi's could be one

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

dressing up as Nazi's could be one

To me dressing as a Nazi is in worst taste than the collecting of death plaques but i sure do see your point.

Roland.

[steve white]

I don`t see the point, who other than actors and a certain prince of the realm dresses up as nazis? This thread is about my opinion of the collection of death plates and the replies of those that do. Thanks to the sacrifice of others we all enjoy the freedom to voice our opinions. dcw

[Ilbury Welsh]

[dcwuk' date='Aug 12 2006, such has?]

Remember there are a vast amount of medals out there for various reasons. Many have been sold by the family because they prefered the cash, many have been stolen in the past no doubt but many were sold by the recipients themselves because they didn't want them. My first father-in-law a Para in WW2 did just that when he returned to England.

I am sure if you asked all those old boys this November when they have walked past the Cenotaph with their medals gleaming "if your family doesn't want your medals when you have passed on, would you be happy for a collector to cherish them?" I am confident most would probably say "when I'm gone son I don't care!"

John

[welshdoc]

Ive kept out of this one since my first post, but i was having alook at EBAY today and theres several nice pairs under £25 and then there are 2 erased medals together are at well over £30. Now I cannot see the point in this, if a group has a medal missing so be it but to pay more for defaced medals (which is an insult to the person who earned them) seems daft. The only worse thing is any person which erases medals. As for my earlier comments about greed, its the people who buy medals as an investment with no interest in the person who earned them or the war they were issued for. As for the medal collectors yes we are greedy in the same way as most collectors as we are always looking for the next find but I dont think profit is the motivation its the "collecting bug".Gareth

[steve white]

Thanks to the last two posters. a couple of points well made if i may say so.

As a newbie to this forum maybe i should have started out with a lesser topic and got back to my real reason for being here which is to try and piece together my families history.

especialy that of pte frederick thomas white of the northamptonshire regiment and later 2nd battalion royal fussilers.

Anyway great forum with an interesting membership

dcwuk

[welshdoc]

It certainly can get lively, but the knowlege and help you get is superb!

[Jim Clay]

It certainly can get lively, but the knowlege and help you get is superb!

Absolutely right on both points, Gareth. And a useful place for confirming that not all black & white issues are - well, black & white. In effect all of us are on this Forum BECAUSE we have great respect for the men who fought, and in many, many cases, died in WW1 (though we'll express that respect in our own individual ways) and all of us have ancestors who did just that.

Not a collector myself, dcwuk, but IMO collectors, like HB and others on this Forum, do play a VITAL role in preserving and researching our heritage. And that includes the medals and plaques awarded nearly a century ago and long since disposed of by recipients or their families.

HB's collector's enthusiasm obscene? Erm, I think not .

My 2 pennorth FWIW.

Jim

[birkettm]

For the uninitated:~

I have been Collecting Campaign & Gallantry Medals & Decorations;including any associated Commemorative Plaques;{The correct nomenclature for them by the way!} for 46 + Years now,from a very early age,having them for Christmas & Birthdays & spending my saved pocket money @ aged 8,preferring to buy a 1914 Star Trio,or a Queen's South Africa,from Flea Markets,Junk Shops,Antique Shops,Collectors Centres,even saving some from the Dustbins of Brentwood!,etc;when other lads were having Scalextric,Railway Train Sets & the like or buying Bars of Chocolate,Jamboree Bags & Fizzy Drinks,or Toys,with theirs!.

As I grew older & relatively more affluent I purchased more medals from various sources,including many directly from Recipients & Families; who had no one to leave them to,or simply preferred cash to "Old Medals" lying in the drawer,& were & still are in many cases extremely happy that someone is interested & is caring for the Medals of their forebears,as I continued Collecting I began after not so many years to become interested in the Recipients of these discs & stars & crosses,& began a life long{so far} interest,nay;love affair with Medals & the research of their "Winners",after some years & on moving to sunny Cambridgeshire,some 26 years ago I began to specialize & collect to the local Cambridgeshire Regiment TF & TA;& its predecessors,hence my particular interest & joy in accquiring this particular plaque,to lay alongside those awards & plaques;of many of his Comrades in Arms,having built up a comprehensive Collection & file on the 1/1st Cambridgeshire Regiment TF in WW1 & TA in WW2,along with the 6th {Service} Bn,Northamptonshire Regt & various other unusual groups to various British & Empire units;researching as often as availability,time & funds allow as much as possible about the aforementioned Recipients.

I do not begrudge my neighbour his BMW,or my other one his Spanish Holidays,but I choose to spend my money in the legal pursuit of my lifelong hobby,buying Medals that other people are pleased to offer,either privately,via Online or Public Auctions,Dealers Lists,Fairs,etc.I certainly see nothing "Obscene" in being pleased about adding a further item to one's collection & doing the necessary research,as I doubt would any other Collector,be it of Medals,Penny Blacks,Faberge Eggs or Bugattis.I didn't steal it,or cheat the family out of it; I paid the market price in a Worldwide Public Auction,presumably any descendant/relative{s} of Mr S~C would have had just as much chance of bidding as I had,had they been @ all interested<::>I refer to my previous statements~Initially in virtually ALL cases it is the Family that disposes of them in the first place~Where else could they come from???

I have stated previously on a number of ocassions,that I do not see it as my job,nor responsibility;to seek to return items of Militaria to disperate Families,who may then resell them yet again,even if they wanted them,how many would be prepared to pay for them?I am not a Charity,I seek to collect for my personal pleasure,with my funds,to preserve the memories of those men whose awards I am PROUD to be the present curator & custodian of.

They too could if their mood took them Collect such things,many do collecting to only the Family name,others have no interest what so ever in what Grandad,or even Dad did!why we,as Collectors, should be pilloried for enjoying what we do totally escapes me,are we expected to be miserable @ accquiring an addition to our Collections??,it in no way detracts from the respect we show & give to the Recipient's memory,if no family ever sold the Awards granted to their forebears there would be none to collect,but in the Real World not everyone has the same ethic,no one blinks when the Awards of a notable Field Marshall are sold through Sotheby's or Christie's,so why get anal when Joe Bloggs{him again}sells his great uncles medals & plaque through ebay,it is a fact of life.

I do not glorify in the death of "my men" but attempt to do the best to glorify & commemorate their often short lives,as can be seen from reading the research culled from various sources posted about 'W G S-C' & other recipients whose details I have from time to time posted here & elsewhere!

Anyone who has bothered to read my signature & that of many many Forum members can see that the loss of many Relatives in time of War has no exclusivity.

You need to cut this out and keep it. That way when this topic comes up again you dont have to retype it....

Id thought we had gotten away with it when the high and mighty moved over onto re-enactors too.

Cheers.

Marc

[Soren]

I don`t see the point, who other than actors and a certain prince of the realm dresses up as nazis? This thread is about my opinion of the collection of death plates and the replies of those that do. Thanks to the sacrifice of others we all enjoy the freedom to voice our opinions. dcw

I was just pointing out some tasteless hobbies that are pursued these days, therefore responding to your question: 'Such as?'

I see nothing wrong with collecting these items, at least someone values them in one way or another, at the end of the day someone at some point in all of these families let these death plaques slip from their possession whether for financial benefit or ignorance (or in some very rare cases being stolen, which is something completely different)

[steve white]

I did not think i was being high and mighty just stating an opinion.

my dislike is of these appearing on ebay and being sold for profit to my mind it cheapens what the plates represent.

[Soren]

I did not think i was being high and mighty just stating an opinion.

my dislike is of these appearing on ebay and being sold for profit to my mind it cheapens what the plates represent.

As I said, who let them go in the first place? invariably old Pte A Nonymous's Gt grandson/nephew or summat., at least collectors or dealers value them and if a distant relative is lucky enoughthey can be reunited if they so wish due to these very dealers.

If people were so kind as to reunite families with some bizzarre sense of doing the right thing, you'd probably find that they (the long lost relatives) are some burberry wearing Chav's who'd be straight down cashconverters with it the very next day so they could buy some white lightening cider or an eigth.

The other day I mentioned the 'Somme' to a friend of mine ( for some years now) in their mid 40's, she did not have a clue what it was or stood for, needless to say, I drank my pint rather rapidly and took my pickled Gherkin with me, went home and put my Burberry baseball cap on and started a bong.

I say thank heavens for the interest in these items, and that the dealers should be thanked for what they do (other than turning 'em into clocks and erasing things etc etc etc)

[steve white]

The problem being that it is not pc to be proud of our heritage and teach the younger generation our history.Having said that youngsters are not going to be educated if they see such items being sold on ebay.

Its just possible that if people were given the knowledge and history of these items they may well treaure them. who knows?

dcwuk

[Peter B]

History is still being taught in schools, my children 10,14 & 16 have all learnt about WW1 and WW2, with History as a GCSE subject going futher in depth on the subject. My 14 year old recently had to do a project on a local war memorial, and to find out as much about the men commenerated on it.

With regard to ebay they often asks questions about the items I view, items they would not learn about otherwise.

Regards

Peter

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The problem being that it is not pc to be proud of our heritage and teach the younger generation our history.Having said that youngsters are not going to be educated if they see such items being sold on ebay.

Its just possible that if people were given the knowledge and history of these items they may well treaure them. who knows?

dcwuk

A knowledge of history does not preclude the selling of historical artefacts,WW1 Medals & Commemorative plaques have been sold & bought for decades,virtually since their inception,as have Medals to men who served in India,Waterloo,The Pennisula Wars,The Crimea,The Americas & South Africa,et al,in the 18th & 19th Centuries;& there is no denying that those who buy them {& many who sell} them are extremely interested in the History of the Men & Regiments & history they represent.Remember on a site such as this almost everyone has an interest in their own & global history of the period,& consequently there will be no dispute regarding that aspect,but not everyone sings from the same hymn sheet,many thousands of Families no longer exist in the manner they did in the era of the Great War,they have simply died out,with no immediate N~o~K to leave such things to;nearly 100 years on many families are to say the least dilute,with regard to having anyone "close" who served in WW1.

But the only difference is that in the past they were sold quietly;privately,between Collectors,from Dealers lists or through the London & provincial Auction houses,who obviously charged {& still do} high % commision to sell any item,be it a Grecian Marble or a WW1 DCM;all that ebay & other such sites,have done is in some cases;cut out the "Middle Men" & allowed sellers to sell items they have no interest in retaining,to offer them to a world wide marketplace & give Collectors an enhanced opportunity to accquire items to expand their collections,far from obscene,I see it as a far better resting place for a Serviceman's Medals & plaques in a well researched & cared for Collection,being displayed to many interested parties on ocassion,than being hidden away in a drawer or cupboard for 90 years

You cannot legislate for people to be proud of their heritage,some are,some would never be regardless of what education might be foisted upon them.

Some people would not dream of selling heirlooms,& that is to be commended;but what you or I might never do cannot be reflected throughout the populus.

It matters not where such things are sold,but rather where they end up.

[steve white]

Your points are well made and noted and i am one of those who would not dream of selling my ancestors medals. I have no illusions that no matter what i or people like me think, things will not change there will always be arguments for and against.

I am pleased that children are being made aware of the history of the world wars and was not aware that this was being taught and stand corrected.

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

and that the dealers should be thanked for what they do (other than turning 'em into clocks and erasing things etc etc etc)

The clocks are a different matter but dealers only erase medals and plaques as there is , sadly , a growing market. I am sure that more than one medal of a lucky chap who survived the War has been erased and replaced with a poor soul who was KIA thus making the medal more desirable to some collectors and a plaque re-named to a much much more fashionable regiment thus increasing its value.

None of our forum collectors have ever had an erased/re-named medal or plaque as they can spot them a mile off , even from eBay pictures...

Roland.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

I am sure that more than one medal of a lucky chap who survived the War has been erased and replaced with a poor soul who was KIA thus making the medal more desirable to some collectors and a plaque re-named to a much much more fashionable regiment thus increasing its value.

None of our forum collectors have ever had an erased/re-named medal or plaque as they can spot them a mile off , even from eBay pictures...

Roland.

It is relatively easy to spot re~engraved & erased ones as

a}the outer edge appears thinner @ the base of the disc.

b}the lettering is usually engraved rather than by the usual way which is hard to replicate

c}plaques are easy to spot as if erased the original raised lettering is replaced by incuse engraving;a definite give away.

The buyers of these erased ones are rarely collectors;who generally;wouldn't want to defile their collections,but usually those who want a duplicate group to represent "Granda's Awards" to hang in the hall.

Any re~engraved exanples renaned to casualties;are of little intrinsic or historical value to collectors as they are basically defaced & ruined.

As with all hobbies it pays to know your subject:consequently knowledge is power,anyone thinking of collecting should research the subject thoroughly first so they know what to look for.

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

The buyers of these erased ones are rarely collectors;

So if the collectors don`t buy erased even to complete a group it seems it is the relatives then that are the market for erased medals .... Wonder who provides this service to them ?

Roland.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

So if the collectors don`t buy erased even to complete a group it is the relatives then that are the market for erased medals .... Wonder who provides this service ?

Roland.

Sadly a very few reprehensible so called dealers:whose ethics are not those of the majority,they are condemed by virtually all genuine collectors~& avoided !!

I certainly wouldn't entertain any erased or re~enraved ones in any of the Collections I have;they have no revelance.

[Guest Hill 60]

If your not sure about this item, then you should see the plaques that have been turned into clocks!

I've got one of those, what's wrong with them? The hole in the centre is no worse than the other ('holey') plaque I have that has 3 holes for fixing to a piece of wood.

I can see the name every time I look at the time (well, I would if it wasn't currently residing in my parent's attic).

I must admit, I'd rather the plaque hadn't been drilled. However, it was and I bought it..and for about £5 a couple of years back I did pretty well........car boot sales can be good

[Bazezah]

Getting Death Plaques, Medals etc, from e-bay or at boot fairs and not known dealers, I would surgest is somewhat "iffy" and in bad taste, bearing in mind that the complete collection of WW1 & WW2 medal were stolen from the Queens Royal Surrey Regimental Museum not so very long ago and as far as I'am aware none have been recovered yet.

Some thing to think about.

Barry