The woman sniper of Gallipoli

[bob lembke]

Incidentally, do people of indeterminate or ambiguous gender never occur in Turkey?

I never thought of that. I had a dear friend, a Chinese-American professor of pedriatric endricronology who was the president of my SCUBA diving club, and one day we were well into a Chinese banquet (He had me set up annual ones for our diving club; I think I did 18 of them), and his lips were loosened by alcohol, and he described a specialty of his, working with babies of indeterminate sexuality; he would study them, pick the best sex to move them to (usually female, the plumbing was easier), and make them that sex. Sometimes he would take a boy (of sorts) and make it into a little girl. He would evaluate the parents, and if he thought that they could not handle it, he would do what he thought was the best for the child and not necessarily tell them what he had done. Many of the listeners, all friends (Atlantic wreck diving tends to bond fellow divers) were wide-eyed, and some were clearly thinking that he had taken on an over-the-top God-like decision role. We all were quite sloshed.

I would suspect such a process if there were more creditable accounts, of examining (in the first person) a corpse of an assumed female sniper, but no one seems to have an even half-way believable account. And a shell might perform a sex change as well as Professor Tom's surgeon. As suggested above, it is easier to remove a "short arm" than create one.

Bob Lembke

PS: The whole premise of this thread is weird. I am not suffering the slightest pang of OTG (Off Topic Guilt). But I rarely do.

[Piorun]

Sorry, lads. Do me a favour and keep this discussion within acceptable limits of reality and imagination. Believe me, as a veteran, when I say that sex changes are irrelevant on a battlefield. I believe what I see and I shoot what I believe I see. I don't give a darn what transpires later. No man or woman would dress other than as a man on the battlefields of the Great War. Even in Poland during the German occupation of WWII, the brave women couriers of the sewers were dressed the same as the men. Yes, in close-up one could tell the difference but one doesn't get close to live snipers in reality. Antony

[Guest]

You might find this ineteresting.

http://zagria.blogspot.com/2008/01/james-m...-1795-1865.html

http://www.geocities.com/eschiva/stuart.html

Cheers

Kim

[Piorun]

You might find this ineteresting.

http://zagria.blogspot.com/2008/01/james-m...-1795-1865.html

http://www.geocities.com/eschiva/stuart.html

Cheers

Kim

As I said, Kim; dressed as a man to the bitter end Antony

[Droocoo]

I'd never heard of this before!!

[Tunesmith]

Oh, and sorry Tunesmith, I thought I had answered your question, obviously another senior moment From what I have, and this particular to the 8th Light Horse Regiment, the last officer and men who had been sent out to Suvla, returned to the Regiment at Canterbury Slope, from Arghyl Dere, on Thursday 9th September 1915.

And to your second question. I only have two men who were scouts, that have left diary notes of opporating in the counter sniper work, and neither come within a 'Bull's roar' to mention of a woman Turk, sniper, dead or alive, or otherwise.

Jeff,

Thanks for your reply to my two questions.

Tunesmith

[Tunesmith]

I've collected up some accounts of woman snipers written by British soldiers who were at Suvla. So far I've found 13 letters published in Norfolk, Suffolk and Hampshire newspapers between 4th Sept and 21st Sept (Thanks to T8Hants for pointing me to the IoW letters), 2 unpublished letters probably written in August, and an unpublished memoir written in Dec 1915.

Most of these accounts were by 163 brigade soldiers recounting the action of 12th-14th August on the Anafarta plain. The earliest was written on 16th August. None are unequivocally direct eyewitness accounts but, equally, none explicitly dismiss the story.

There seem to be two distinct versions of the story.

Three letters describe a woman sniper killed and found with her victims' id tags and/or their watches and/or their money. This is pretty much the same story that had been doing the rounds at Anzac. Two of these letters were written from a hospital in Malta. The other was from Suvla, date of writing unknown but published on Sept 21st, so I would guess later than most of the other letters.

The other thirteen accounts give a different set of details - women (and sometimes young girls and boys) alongside men snipers, sometimes painted green, usually concealed in trees or undergrowth, sometimes with stocks of food and ammo.

So where did these two stories spring from? One no doubt came from Anzac and I can't begin to guess at its origins. I can only assume the other originated from 163 Brigade's experiences: the Turkish army evidently did not have women snipers, so either one or more soldiers in their first action saw civilian women and children on the Anafarta plain (which I'd argue was not impossible) and took them for snipers. Or they thought they saw women when in fact they saw men. Or they thought someone else saw women.

An intriguing comparison is the story of a woman sniper at Juno Beach on D-Day – a young French woman reportedly fired from a church tower before being shot, or captured then shot, by French Canadians. The IWM has an audio interview with a British veteran who managed to tell two versions of the story at the same time in his eyewitness account. He said she was wearing a German coat that was apparently her husband's….he saw her standing on the beach… someone said that she was wearing a wedding dress underneath a uniform jacket… a French Canadian went and killed her and brought the body out [of the tower]… well, he saw a uniform on a body….well, he didn't know it was a woman at the time.

Tunesmith

[James Blonde]

Three letters describe a woman sniper killed and found with her victims' id tags and/or their watches and/or their money. This is pretty much the same story that had been doing the rounds at Anzac. Two of these letters were written from a hospital in Malta. The other was from Suvla, date of writing unknown but published on Sept 21st, so I would guess later than most of the other letters.

Tunesmith

I find it very hard to believe that a sniper killing at long range,

be it man or woman, would then crawl up and plunder the body of the victim

of id-tags, watches or money.

Connaught Stranger.

[Tunesmith]

I find it very hard to believe that a sniper killing at long range,be it man or woman, would then crawl up and plunder the body of the victim of id-tags, watches or money.

Connaught Stranger.

I totally agree. As my previous post points out, this particular version of the story was already circulating among troops at Anzac. I can't guess how it started and wouldn't like to say there was any truth in it. I'm sure it spread as a rumour to Suvla.

That said, these letters were written before trench-warfare set in at Suvla, when many Turkish snipers were killing at relatively close range from concealed spots just in front of, within or behind the lines of advancing troops.

Tunesmith

[James Blonde]

I totally agree. As my previous post points out, this particular version of the story was already circulating among troops at Anzac. I can't guess how it started and wouldn't like to say there was any truth in it. I'm sure it spread as a rumour to Suvla.

That said, these letters were written before trench-warfare set in at Suvla, when many Turkish snipers were killing at relatively close range from concealed spots just in front of, within or behind the lines of advancing troops.

Tunesmith

What were the chances of a sniper getting to pick off men, who separated from their section, platoon, etc..etc..

I cant imagine lost souls wandering around the battlefield, having landed as a group, men tend to stick together.

Even then, a rifle shot is abound to arouse attention, comrades would be on the look out for their buddy's,

even then, a sniper moving out of position, to advance to his kill to loot is a bit of a no-no, and surely would lead

to certain discovery.

Connaught Stranger.

[Tunesmith]

<br />What were the chances of a sniper getting to pick off men, who separated from their section, platoon, etc..etc.. I cant imagine lost souls wandering around the battlefield, having landed as a group, men tend to stick together. Even then, a rifle shot is abound to arouse attention, comrades would be on the look out for their buddy's, even then, a sniper moving out of position, to advance to his kill to loot is a bit of a no-no, and surely would lead to certain discovery. Connaught Stranger. <img src="style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> <br /><br />

<

I believe Turkish sniping at Suvla in August was pretty constant and deadly, and many units were tragically slow to pinpoint the sources. Officers and NCO's were particularly targeted, obliging them to remove their marks of rank. From the accounts, machine-gun bursts into trees brought some of the close-firing snipers down and in the 163rd brigade's advance across the Anafarta plain, some letter writers say the bayonet and rifle bullet was used on snipers concealed in undergrowth who were discovered as they were overrun.

As I said, I'm sure you're right about the looting - this particular aspect of the story would seem obvious myth as no sniper would have moved out of position to loot victims.

Tunesmith

[T8HANTS]

When considering the letters from 163 Brigade, it must be remembered that most of these come from men wounded within 48 - 72 hours of being in an active theatre. Arriving on the 10th August, they spent the 11th towards the rear, then moving up for their sniper clearing drive on the 12th.

That Turkish riflemen were present is proven by the first casualty suffered by 163 Brigade, being Bugle Major Peachey of the 8th Hants, who on sounding the advance for the whole Brigade was shot through the right upper thigh, by a Turk presumably mistaking the glint coming from his bugle for that of a bayonet held at the high port.. aim 24inches low and 10 to the right...bingo!

From that moment on just how many snipers the men of 163 Brigade actually encountered and dealt with, must be pure conjecture. They started to receive shrapnel after 100 yards of advance, and then increasing machine gun and rifle fire coming off the slopes of Anafarta. All this time they are fanning out and losing the Brigade line, and contact with their own Battalions. The men of the 5th Norfolks being ever urged onward and away from the rest of the Brigade by their Col Beauchamp, who was undoubtedly very brave, but totally inexperienced. This allowed Turkish troops to cut off two companies of the Norfolks, resulting in their much discussed "disappearance". The machine gun section of the 8th Hants could not keep with the rest of the battalion, and it was not until the MG officer requisitioned two stretchers off the medics, and loaded his guns on to them, that he was eventually able to get them up to where they were needed.

Casualties suffered by the Brigade were much higher than they had ever mentally prepared themselves for, and the shock of actual combat must have been very great for these under trained youngsters. As Territorials they were used to Saturday schemes, where they saw off the enemy after a bit of fire and movement, and then went back to camp or drill hall to be told how well they had done. It can be of little wonder that some men shocked by their recent experiences may latch on to somebodies fanciful tales of green painted women snipers as a way of coming to terms with and explaining these recent terrible events.

With my limited knowledge of activities on the western front I cannot think of an instance where a Territorial or New Army brigade was pushed into action within 48 hours of arriving in theatre, or without some introduction to an active sector.

G

[michaeldr]

A different twist on the old story

The following is from Lt.-Col. Frank Mills D.S.O., and was addressed by him on 5th Feb 1930, to Brig-Gen C. F. Aspinall-Oglander CB, CMG, DSO. It forms part of Col Mills' comments on chapters XXV & XXVIII of the British OH (Suvla 9th/10th and 15th/16 Aug 1915)

The middle paragraph is of particular interest with regards to this thread, and it must be emphasised that Col Mills' remarks are prefaced by him with the caution

"I did not actually see it, but was told on the best authority...."

[SiegeGunner]

Good, Michael, in fact very good - but those fatal words "I did not actually see it ..." still haunt the account.

[bob lembke]

Once again!

Of all of the 37 reasons why this is most unlikely, the best one is that the imams in each battalion would not stand for it one second. and since 85% of the men also would find this upsetting, the imams would have known of this idea in two seconds. The memoirs of German officers serving there refer to the great influence of the battalion imams, who upon occasion led the battalion in combat, and well.

Secondly, from the account the young woman was instantly recognized as a woman by the British. This reenforces the above, the story as told has a young woman in combat dressed so clearly as a woman, or so easily recognized as such, so that men from a very different culture would do so quickly. Additionally, at the time perhaps one young woman in 1000, or in 5000, could speak English. And almost all who did would have come from a family of very high socio-economic status. Hardly people who would allow such a thing.

Really a story from or intended for people who did not know much about Turkish culture or the Turkish Army. There are quite a few "whoppers" in Allied accounts of fighting in this theatre. One of my wife's favorites was how tame dinasours (sp?) helped the Egyptians build the Pyramids. Another one she liked and pointed out to me was about how Allies soldiers swimming off Gallipoli were sometimes eaten by sea-monsters. References furnished on request.

Bob Lembke

PS: This thread is sort of like an endless loop of film, butt-spliced, running thru a projector. Fun, however.

[bluedog]

Bob

Off topic but could you please empty your PM box and e-mails please

Peter

[michaeldr]

but those fatal words "I did not actually see it ..." still haunt the account.

Agreed, Mick

best regards

Michael

[SiegeGunner]

Unless and until someone produces watertight first-hand testimony backed by irrefutable photographic evidence, the number of long-range female Turkish snipers at Gallipoli is going to remain at one - Asiatic Annie ...

[Krithia]

Unless and until someone produces watertight first-hand testimony backed by irrefutable photographic evidence, the number of long-range female Turkish snipers at Gallipoli is going to remain at one - Asiatic Annie ...

I like it !

[priestleysj]

Just thought I'd add my Great Grand Uncle Percy's account to those already given above:

We have captured several snipers, & killed a good many. We captured a young girl (about 18) who was out sniping (from Krithia) They are good shots. She had about 30 of our identification disc’s on her. One sniper got behind our lines & lay in wait for the wounded, & shot them as they passed on their way to the dressing station on the beach. We caught him & gave him his deserts.

That was dated Sunday 25 April 1915. He had landed at W beach with 2nd Hampshires. I'm not suggesting this is evidence; it could well be that he was just writing up stories that were going round his unit.

Percy Brown was a regular soldier who enlisted in 1908. He survived Gallipoli but was evacuated after he got dysentry and that was the end of his war. I've been transcribing the diary (spelling mistakes and all) and will be posting it in full shortly.

Steve

[Jim Strawbridge]

Just thought I'd add my Great Grand Uncle Percy's account to those already given above:

We have captured several snipers, & killed a good many. We captured a young girl (about 18) who was out sniping (from Krithia) They are good shots. She had about 30 of our identification disc’s on her. One sniper got behind our lines & lay in wait for the wounded, & shot them as they passed on their way to the dressing station on the beach. We caught him & gave him his deserts.

That was dated Sunday 25 April 1915. He had landed at W beach with 2nd Hampshires. I'm not suggesting this is evidence; it could well be that he was just writing up stories that were going round his unit.

Percy Brown was a regular soldier who enlisted in 1908. He survived Gallipoli but was evacuated after he got dysentry and that was the end of his war. I've been transcribing the diary (spelling mistakes and all) and will be posting it in full shortly.

Steve

The only point that I would add is how the girl got hold of the identity discs. As a sniper she would be hundreds of yards away from "her prey" and she would have been stupid to have tried to get to her victims thereby giving herself away. A true sniper would have been stealthy - waiting and unmoving for hours on end - not taking the chance at being spotted by an enemy sniper through wanting to get identity discs. So if she had discs it is unlikely those belonged to her victims.

[Piorun]

Agree with Jim on that point. The very nature of a sniper is not to be seen as a sniper. However, it is interesting that Steve's g/g/u's account tallies so closely with Mills' account in Post 265 above. Antony

[truthergw]

The only point that I would add is how the girl got hold of the identity discs. As a sniper she would be hundreds of yards away from "her prey" and she would have been stupid to have tried to get to her victims thereby giving herself away. A true sniper would have been stealthy - waiting and unmoving for hours on end - not taking the chance at being spotted by an enemy sniper through wanting to get identity discs. So if she had discs it is unlikely those belonged to her victims.

I agree Jim and in fact made that very point, way back in the dim and misty beginning of the thread.

[Tunesmith]

Just thought I'd add my Great Grand Uncle Percy's account to those already given above:

We have captured several snipers, & killed a good many. We captured a young girl (about 18) who was out sniping (from Krithia) They are good shots. She had about 30 of our identification disc’s on her.

That was dated Sunday 25 April 1915.

So it looks like this version of the story emerged on the very first day of the campaign, at Helles.

It was still going strong in September at Suvla:

“I heard the other day of a girl of 19 being discovered in our lines sniping. She had round her neck over 30 identification discs of our men whom she had shot; also over £50 in English money, which she had taken from the dead bodies of men who fell by her hand.”

FA Clarke, 5th Suffolks, letter in the East Suffolk Gazette – September 21st 1915

[truthergw]

So it looks like this version of the story emerged on the very first day of the campaign, at Helles.

It was still going strong in September at Suvla:

"I heard the other day of a girl of 19 being discovered in our lines sniping. She had round her neck over 30 identification discs of our men whom she had shot; also over £50 in English money, which she had taken from the dead bodies of men who fell by her hand."

FA Clarke, 5th Suffolks, letter in the East Suffolk Gazette – September 21st 1915

So the woman sniper rifled the bodies of her victims after killing them? I suspect such a haul of discs and cash was more likely to have been made in Cairo brothels than the trenches of Gallipoli.