The woman sniper of Gallipoli

[T8HANTS]

“I heard the other day of a girl of 19 being discovered in our lines sniping. She had round her neck over 30 identification discs of our men whom she had shot; also over £50 in English money, which she had taken from the dead bodies of men who fell by her hand.”

163 Brigades letters home are full of lady sniper stories, including rifle and uniform being painted in green. You would have thought that someone would have kept a green painted rifle even if they did not photograph the prisoner/corps. The myth of the Turkish Miss continues.

G

[michaeldr]

We have captured several snipers, & killed a good many. We captured a young girl (about 18) who was out sniping (from Krithia) They are good shots. She had about 30 of our identification disc’s on her.

That was dated Sunday 25 April 1915.

I don't know which surprises me more

- The lady sniper

- The fact that it was known that she was a local lass from Krithia

- Or that a soldier who had just landed in the mayhem of the 25 April 1915, had the time and the opportunity to write it all down.

I look forward to reading more

regards

Michael

[Piorun]

A woman sniping (or firing a rifle accurately) isn't a surprise to anyone who, within living memory went through the Polish or Russian campaigns of WW2. Krithia was just down the road; it was likely the only place she could have come from. In a twenty-four hour period, you'd be (really) surprised just how much time a soldier on active duty has to record his thoughts, especially if he was in the habit of doing so. Antony

[truthergw]

A woman sniping (or firing a rifle accurately) isn't a surprise to anyone who, within living memory went through the Polish or Russian campaigns of WW2. Krithia was just down the road; it was likely the only place she could have come from. In a twenty-four hour period, you'd be (really) surprised just how much time a soldier on active duty has to record his thoughts, especially if he was in the habit of doing so. Antony

How did she collect the ID discs and cash?

[priestleysj]

I don't know which surprises me more

- Or that a soldier who had just landed in the mayhem of the 25 April 1915, had the time and the opportunity to write it all down.

I look forward to reading more

It was dated 25 April ... it may not have been written on 25 April.

I'll try to post the whole diary this weekend.

Steve

[Piorun]

How did she collect the ID discs and cash?

'twas the oldest profession She is only reported as being in possession of them. I think, as so many have said before, it is unlikely that she shot and and stripped. More likely she took the discs and cash from bodies found along the way or, as suggested, her own soldiers gave her favours. The one aspect of the story does not necessarily negate the other. Antony

[SiegeGunner]

The poor lass must have been the village idiot if she traded her favours for discs of little or no monetary value and cash she couldn't spend.

[Piorun]

I've known girls in Glasgow who'd trade it for less I'm not sure Krithia had a lot going for it back then. Antony

[priestleysj]

Further to my earlier posts, I have now posted my Great Grand Uncle Percy Brown's diary as a blog. It's called Percy Brown's war diary (I didn't have to think very long before calling it that). Most of it's about the Gallipoli campaign.

Percy was born in Pokesdown on 1 June 1890 and he enlisted on 3 October 1908, serving initially in the 1st Bn and from 1911 in the 2nd Bn. always as a Private. His diary covers the period from enlistment until his recovery from dysentry in September 1915. He then transferred to the Dorset Regt and saw service in France, but there's no diary of that period. He was discharged in 1920 and lived in Alveston, near Stratford on Avon, earning his living as a boot repairer.

The diary I have transcribed appears to me to be a copy, although it is definitely in Percy's own hand. I obtained it from an Australian relative, and my guess is that Percy made a copy from an original and sent it out to them. I can't vouch for the original's authenticity as a war diary, assuming there ever was an original. The manuscript I have could have been reconstructed later from memories of the events he describes. It includes a map and other drawings, which have evidently been copied from elsewhere. My hunch is that the narrative part of the diary is a mixture of recollection and contemporaneous writings, but I'd be interested in the opinions of others.

Happy Christmas folks,

Steve

[michaeldr]

Steve,

Many thanks for Percy's Blog

I have enjoyed the read

Happy Christmas

Michael

[Neil2]

Here's an account given in 1933 to an Australian Newspaper (Brisbane Courier) by Lt Col. Frederick Hawkins, CO of the 4th Essex. (It seems the paper sent a reporter on a fishing trip aboard a cruise ship in the hope of finding something to write about.) Lt Col. Hawkins landed at Suvla on the 13th August and was wounded on the 18th. I'm not certain but I don't think he ever went back - he certainly relinquished his commission in Feb 1916. So that seems to close down the time window for this anecdote. I can only think given the movements of his unit that this could only have taken place in one location: "Norfolk Hill" (117.K.7 on the common map - one of the lower spurs of Kiretch Tepe Sirt). It was almost on the plain, about a mile back from the advanced trenches. So the lady in question would have been a mile behind enemy lines. Given all the troop movements she'd have had to be very quick to snipe, come down the tree, get the discs and climb back up again. (Unless she gathered them all up before the general advance and got stuck in her perch until the Australian shot her.) It sounds very much like every other story - but clearly a topic of fascination still in 1933.

MEMORIES OF

GALLIPOLI.

A Story of the Snipers.

Vivid memories of the landing of the Australian troops on Gallipoli were recalled yesterday by Colonel F, Hawkins, a retired Indian Army officer, who is one of the tourist party on the Ulysses. Colonel Hawkins was with the British troops in the early days of Gallipoli, and he mentioned that he remembered a stalwart Australian standing beside him while the colonel inspected the fighting, front through a pair of field glasses. The Australian asked for a loan of the glasses for a few minutes, and, after taking a long and careful look through them in the direction from which the bullets were coming, handed them back and levelled his rifle at a tree in front. He fired, and down fell a sniper out of the tree, dressed in green. The sniper proved to be a woman, and, when her tunic was opened, it was found that she had a string of metal identification discs around her neck, which she had taken from men she had shot. It was learned, subsequently, tnat for every such disc handed in she would have received a sovereign from the Turkish Army. Many other snipers were found, with strings of sovereigns as necklaces, and each sovereign on the necklace represented a ' victim of the sniper's rifle.

[truthergw]

Here's an account given in 1933 to an Australian Newspaper (Brisbane Courier) by Lt Col. Frederick Hawkins, CO of the 4th Essex..............................

MEMORIES OF

GALLIPOLI.

A Story of the Snipers.

Vivid memories of the landing of the Australian troops on Gallipoli were recalled yesterday by Colonel F, Hawkins, a retired Indian Army officer, who is one of the tourist party on the Ulysses. Colonel Hawkins was with the British troops in the early days of Gallipoli, and he mentioned that he remembered a stalwart Australian standing beside him while the colonel inspected the fighting, front through a pair of field glasses. The Australian asked for a loan of the glasses for a few minutes, and, after taking a long and careful look through them in the direction from which the bullets were coming, handed them back and levelled his rifle at a tree in front. He fired, and down fell a sniper out of the tree, dressed in green. The sniper proved to be a woman, and, when her tunic was opened, it was found that she had a string of metal identification discs around her neck, which she had taken from men she had shot. It was learned, subsequently, tnat for every such disc handed in she would have received a sovereign from the Turkish Army. Many other snipers were found, with strings of sovereigns as necklaces, and each sovereign on the necklace represented a ' victim of the sniper's rifle.

I have left the quote in full. No word here of a whore being paid with ID discs. Why would Turkish soldiers be carrying them around? Are we suggesting that they were so plentiful that Turks were collecting them like milk bottle tops? Not only that, many Turks were so rich that they were piercing sovereigns and wearing them as necklaces. A Tommy took 3 weeks to earn a sovereign. Anzacs about a fortnight? Turks were so rich that they were wearing a year's salary or more around their neck and paying 3 weeks as a bonus for each kill. Provided the sniper could pop down his/her tree cross no mans land retrieve the ID disc and return. They certainly earned their 3 weeks wages. I have to question the deplorable sentry keeping which allowed this to happen so often as to allow many snipers to acquire necklaces of pierced sovereigns.

[Neil2]

They must certainly have been resourceful, mustn't they? As related in Post 154, Captain EW Montgomerie of the 4th Norfolks was at the same location as Lt Cool. Hawkins and the 4th Essex on the same day (August 15). His diary entry that day is worth repeating perhaps in conjunction with the Hawkins report above: "All we could do was to keep down the fire of the snipers by shooting into the trees. Rumour has it that some of these snipers were tied to trees, with water and food within reach. Women snipers have been caught within our lines with their faces, arms, legs, and rides painted green."

He doesn't mention the incident with the Australian remembered by Lt Col. Hawkins. I am interested here that he is scrupulous in attributing as rumour those things he has only heard rumoured. On the other hand, he states the capture of women snipers as fact.

[truthergw]

.........................

He doesn't mention the incident with the Australian remembered by Lt Col. Hawkins. I am interested here that he is scrupulous in attributing as rumour those things he has only heard rumoured. On the other hand, he states the capture of women snipers as fact.

I wonder how he distinguished between rumour and fact? Rumours are not generally spread with a health warning. There is no nonsense too outlandish to be relayed. In fact, the dafter the better, in many cases. Russians with snow on their boots. We are all being sent to ******, fill in the current worst or best posting known or imagined. We are going on leave/ all leave is cancelled. Armies are swept by rumour all the time. They are listened to, embroidered and passed on. That is one of the reasons that morale is carefully watched and current rumours monitored. Propaganda for one's own side was as important as for the enemy. Soldiers made up, passed on and most importantly, more than half believed rumours. The mutinies in French and Imperial armies were caused and inflamed by rumour. I notice that now a single woman sniper has multiplied into several. It can only be a matter of time before the Turks are sending battalions of female snipers into Gallipoli. My response to this nonsense is to ask for an official record of a woman sniper being taken prisoner. How often is the practice reported in current newspapers?

[Neil2]

I am very sceptical of it all too but think his phrasing indicates someone generally willing to distinguish between rumour and what he knows to be true. But who can say without knowing him? As for the Hawkins report, it sounds like a tale to please a reporter but he's a senior officer claiming to have seen it with his own eyes. Again, how to judge without knowing the man? Makes a change to hear someone so senior telling the story though.

[truthergw]

For very senior men telling far fetched stories I recommend Lloyd George's War Memoirs and Churchill's The World Crisis. Sir John French rewrote history quite blatantly in his memoirs. There is no lack of senior officers writing self serving piffle.

[Piorun]

I have left the quote in full. No word here of a whore being paid with ID discs. Why would Turkish soldiers be carrying them around? Are we suggesting that they were so plentiful that Turks were collecting them like milk bottle tops?

Jeez; truthergw. Who said "whore" in such a pejorative sense. I don't mean to patronise but, if one's been in the army for a bit, nothing much surprises one. Live and make live. That's all I was suggesting about the woman. I don't suppose all our boys were virgins either. The Turks would pick up similar souvenirs to the Tommies. German or Turkish families would probably not be too happy to see the extent of personal possesions that are still in the possesion of British people and cheerfully dismissed as 'spoils of war'. As for the "sovereigns", you're not suggesting they were British sovereigns? I think the word is used simply as a descriptor of unstamped gold pieces - which were quite common currency in Asia. Antony

[truthergw]

As one old soldier to another, Hi. So gold sovereigns weren't really gold sovereigns. Women who received them in return for their favours were not whores in that sense. Turkish soldiers and the local peasantry were quite used to gold currency. If that last were true, I suspect the people doing the sniping and coin collecting would have been the tommies and diggers.

[Piorun]

Come on, Tom I remember girls in Glasgow who'd have a go for a decent meal in a posh restaurant! Some of them used to be called bicycles but they were a long way from the professional ranks - only gifted amateurs (pun intended!). I honestly don't know the truth of the "girl sniper" bit in the Gallipoli campaign. At this remove, it's hard for anyone to claim that they do. However, forensically, there appears to be sufficient anecdotal evidence to give weight to the argument and we know that women snipers were not uncommon on other fronts. If the shoe had been on the other foot, I doubt that we'd be surprised if the Turks landing at Hastings, or Falmouth or the Heads of Ayr had been subjected to some pretty good shooting from a fairly large contingent of British women, some of whom were as handy with a rifle or shotgun as they were with a gin and tonic. As to gold pieces being about among the peasantry, one only has to look at women's fashion in, say, India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq - and Turkey - to see that wearing milled gold is not at all uncommon at varying levels of society; indeed, it is just the opposite. To the Tommy or Digger, I suspect that the local gold pieces would be called "sovereigns" simply because they looked like them. Best regards, Antony

[truthergw]

I was not aware that girl snipers were common on other fronts. I know of no recorded use of women snipers by French, German or Imperial forces on the Western Front. I suspect that that would have been common knowledge. The only instance I have seen mentioned here on the forum was the one in Gallipoli. We are now asked to take seriously a report by an officer mentioning several captures. That in turn suggests there were quite a few more who were not captured. You assure me that sniping by women was common on other fronts. This is a strangely neglected area of the war and I am amazed that it is not better known.

[Neil2]

I don't have any view on whether these accounts should be taken seriously or not. It's most likely a myth. But the history of the myth is itself interesting to chart, isn't it? Hawkins' account was a fresh one as far as I could see, (though common enough in the details) and his location/timing can be nailed down quite narrowly. A fresh bit of data in the story of the debate, that's all.

[Piorun]

I was not aware that girl snipers were common on other fronts. I know of no recorded use of women snipers by French, German or Imperial forces on the Western Front. I suspect that that would have been common knowledge. The only instance I have seen mentioned here on the forum was the one in Gallipoli. We are now asked to take seriously a report by an officer mentioning several captures. That in turn suggests there were quite a few more who were not captured. You assure me that sniping by women was common on other fronts. This is a strangely neglected area of the war and I am amazed that it is not better known.

Even after living a life longer than my years, l'm always happy to learn from those whose experience or perspective may be broader than mine - although I've never found sarcasm particularly conducive to the process.

I have understood from an early age that the Russians had thousands of women in combat during WW1 and that at least one battalion was called or earned the title of "sharpshooters". On the presumption that a Russian battalion was of similar composition to a British battalion, that would have put several hundred markswomen into combat. Admittedly, that figure may not deserve the description of "common" but I would hold that it might be worthy of being "not uncommon". From family accounts in Poland, I have also known of at least two female markswomen from the north-east and one from the Podhale in the Polish Legion around 1916 and I seem to recall some Polish female sniper connection with the Irish "front" around the same time. My point isn't so much that there is hard, first-hand, photographic evidence of women snipers - just that I don't hold with dismissing out of hand some fairly credible anecdotal evidence and the well-established fact that, within twenty years, some notoriously skilled and brave women were very definitely known to be sniping on the Russian front and round about. Clearly, being a woman didn't rule them out; why should it be so unbelievable less than a generation earlier? Yours, Antony

[Guest]

I was in Bells Library in Perth today, and one of the lovely assistants, drew my attention to new letters they have in the Archives. I'm not sure if they are available to the public yet, but she gave me a copy of a summary of the contents of a fair collection of letters, written by a Scottish Horse soldier, Samuel Black Watson, probably Sgt 1762, and 12?0021 Scottish Horse. In letter 46, the summary of it's contents states

" 19th General Hospital. Improving in health but easily tired. Hoping to get back to UK shortly, 160 patients left on Saturday, and 100 on Monday, but the beds were filled almost immediately, such is the amount of disease here.

Two Australians next to him. He has a great admiration for the Aussies as men and soldiers. The Turks fear them, but not as much as the Gurkhas whom the Turks fear much more and leave severely alone. If a sniper fires at them, one or two go out and get him straight away. The Gurkhas actually play cards on the top of their trenches! Also describes a female sniper painted green who surrendered herself to the Scottish Horse. 1 November 1915. "

I'm not interested in keeping this thread going for the sake of it, but am happy to add anything that might help prove or disprove. I have not seen the original letter, but am sure if it is not already available, it will be in the future.

I had a quick look through the various Scottish Horse Bn Diaries, but saw no mention. It is a difficult diary to read however, and I am also unsure which unit to actually search?

Cheers Mike

[truthergw]

I was in Bells Library in Perth today, and one of the lovely assistants, drew my attention to new letters they have in the Archives. I'm not sure if they are available to the public yet, but she gave me a copy of a summary of the contents of a fair collection of letters, written by a Scottish Horse soldier, Samuel Black Watson, probably Sgt 1762, and 12?0021 Scottish Horse. In letter 46, the summary of it's contents states

" 19th General Hospital. Improving in health but easily tired. Hoping to get back to UK shortly, 160 patients left on Saturday, and 100 on Monday, but the beds were filled almost immediately, such is the amount of disease here.

Two Australians next to him. He has a great admiration for the Aussies as men and soldiers. The Turks fear them, but not as much as the Gurkhas whom the Turks fear much more and leave severely alone. If a sniper fires at them, one or two go out and get him straight away. The Gurkhas actually play cards on the top of their trenches! Also describes a female sniper painted green who surrendered herself to the Scottish Horse. 1 November 1915. "

I'm not interested in keeping this thread going for the sake of it, but am happy to add anything that might help prove or disprove. I have not seen the original letter, but am sure if it is not already available, it will be in the future.

I had a quick look through the various Scottish Horse Bn Diaries, but saw no mention. It is a difficult diary to read however, and I am also unsure which unit to actually search?

Cheers Mike

I would suggest that anyone who is wondering about women painting themselves green and then surrendering or being shot and found to have not only been sniping but to have retrieved the ID discs of their victims, to make a necklace, and so on should perhaps consider the place of women in Muslim society and in particular Muslim women in 1915. Not one official mention as far as I know. Not one photograph. I ask myself why women would do this, why men would let them. Who supplied the weaponry? Where did they live? Who fed and maintained them? I reckon the Russians with snow on their boots have more authenticity than Islamic women painted green, wearing necklaces of captured ID tags, employed in sniping in Gallipoli.

[Guest]

You are probably right Tom. I'm quite happy for the story to be proved ******* I will have a look at the original letter when I get a chance. I just thought it interesting that a the letter has a date of 1st Nov 1915, mentions the story, names a unit, and is at Suvla, rather than Anzac.

Cheers Mike