The woman sniper of Gallipoli

[SiegeGunner]

The one thing in this saga that is certain is that the story that became a legend and/or a myth began somewhere, and it's tempting to see the senior officers' accounts as being strong candidates. The puzzle remains, though — why are there no known photographs? There are innumerable photographs of routine events and commonplace scenes at Gallipoli, so why are there apparently no photos of something as noteworthy as a dead or captured woman sniper? If a photo or photos existed, they would surely have come to light by now. Sod's Law being what it is, I expect that one of these days a purported photo will emerge, showing an apparently female face — and a tunic opened to reveal a chest as flat as an ironing board ...

[Guest]

I was in Bells Library in Perth today, and one of the lovely assistants, drew my attention to new letters they have in the Archives. I'm not sure if they are available to the public yet, but she gave me a copy of a summary of the contents of a fair collection of letters, written by a Scottish Horse soldier, Samuel Black Watson, probably Sgt 1762, and 12?0021 Scottish Horse. In letter 46, the summary of it's contents states

" 19th General Hospital. Improving in health but easily tired. Hoping to get back to UK shortly, 160 patients left on Saturday, and 100 on Monday, but the beds were filled almost immediately, such is the amount of disease here.

Two Australians next to him. He has a great admiration for the Aussies as men and soldiers. The Turks fear them, but not as much as the Gurkhas whom the Turks fear much more and leave severely alone. If a sniper fires at them, one or two go out and get him straight away. The Gurkhas actually play cards on the top of their trenches! Also describes a female sniper painted green who surrendered herself to the Scottish Horse. 1 November 1915. "

I'm not interested in keeping this thread going for the sake of it, but am happy to add anything that might help prove or disprove. I have not seen the original letter, but am sure if it is not already available, it will be in the future.

I had a quick look through the various Scottish Horse Bn Diaries, but saw no mention. It is a difficult diary to read however, and I am also unsure which unit to actually search?

Cheers Mike

I have transcribed all the Scottish Horse War Diaries - There is no mention of this event in the Scottish Horse Bde War Diary, the 1/1st Scottish Horse War Diary, 1/2nd Scottish Horse War Diary or 1/3rd Scottish Horse War Diary [All available online from The National Archives - Ref WO/95/4293]. The diaries are very detailed for the period and have multiple mentions of snipers, day to day events, unusual events such as aircraft crash landing nearby etc. It would seem extraordinary (and unlikely) to not report the 'girl sniper' event. MG

MG

[Piorun]

So (and I'm not criticising Siege Gunner's measured post) are we, at this remove, saying that, because no one had a camera handy in the midst of the Gallipoli campaign, we think that Sergeant Watson is a liar? Why would he waste his time writing such a thing if he didn't believe it to be true? How many identifiable close-ups exist of dead snipers from WW1? The handy camera didn't exist at the time, certainly not within the financial or logistical wherewithal of the average fighting soldier. As for the place of women in "Muslim society"; we must differentiate between married and unmarried, parent-less and not, Muslim or not. What part of "Muslim society" prevents a woman from picking up a rifle? I'm interested to know. Antony

[T8HANTS]

The logistical requirements of a surviving female POW would have been a nightgmare, and noted down somewhere.

As far as the 8th Hants letters were concerned she had already been killed by mid August, and her green rifle discovered. So now we have at least two female snipers with green rifles, one killed in August the other surrendering to the Scottish Horse in November, and nobody kept her green rifle. Or in every case the writers of the meny letters in which this is reported are repeating a tale which they believe to be true, but are mistaken. This far removed in time, either a contemporary photograph, or a surviving rifle resplendent in green paint must be offered as evidence. Even a first hand account if it is uncorroborated by further evidence can no longer be taken as viable.

A question I have not had the answer to, did any Turkish snipers male or female have green painted rifles and has one survived anywhere? If the body cannot be produced, could we see a rifle?

G

[Piorun]

Even a first hand account if it is uncorroborated by further evidence can no longer be taken as viable.

G

Surely you don't mean that, G?! A signed, first-hand account by a steady witness must always be considered viable, reliable even, until proven otherwise, not t'other way around. Where is George Mallory's green boot? Regards, Antony

[T8HANTS]

I now firmly believe the story to be myth, but that is not to discredit the men who thought it to be true.

A contemporary signed statement would be very strong supporting evidence, but not to my mind conclusive proof. The Scottish Horse tale is interesting, but then difficulties arrise, where did she go as a POW, and if she did not die in the POW camp where did she go post war?

The rifle is an important element in this tale, because as far as I am aware green rifles were not standard kit for Turkish snipers, and with the length of this thread nobody has ever said there is a surviving example in a museum somewhere.

G

[Guest]

So (and I'm not criticising Siege Gunner's measured post) are we, at this remove, saying that, because no one had a camera handy in the midst of the Gallipoli campaign, we think that Sergeant Watson is a liar? Why would he waste his time writing such a thing if he didn't believe it to be true? How many identifiable close-ups exist of dead snipers from WW1? The handy camera didn't exist at the time, certainly not within the financial or logistical wherewithal of the average fighting soldier. As for the place of women in "Muslim society"; we must differentiate between married and unmarried, parent-less and not, Muslim or not. What part of "Muslim society" prevents a woman from picking up a rifle? I'm interested to know. Antony

I wouldn't say that Watson was a liar, merely he was reporting something that he did not personally witness. It is inconceivable that if the Scottish Horse had captured her, there would be no mention in any of the 4 War diaries, or the Divisional diaries. Are there any instances of this story being reported by an actual eyewitness? It all appears to be reported speech to me. None of the accounts say "I captured a female sniper" or "I saw a female sniper". If one traces the various stories through the diaries etc it is easy to see how this story (and others) became myth. The ingredients are compelling enough for the story to be remembered and passed on, and embellished on the way. This is normal, and we should not be surprised. It is the 1915 equivalent of a viral internet story in my view.

Everyone will weigh up the evidence and make their own judgments over the integrity of these varied reports of a girl sniper. Some will need it to be proved and some will need it to be disproved. For my part I think it is complete myth due to the lack of official evidence. MG

[Piorun]

But, with respect, Martin, what is "official evidence"? Must every event in history be recorded by a camera or a war diary before you believe it? Surely not? Do you believe Robert Kirkwood's story? I fear that our individual acceptance or rejection of such events is based largely on our own prejudices (that is not used pejoratively) and these are shaped by our own life experiences. One will believe where another will not. I find the stories acceptable because I can find no strong evidence to disprove them and can find other evidence that gives them some credence, to wit; it was only twenty years later that women snipers were clearly proved to have been used by a country that had many Muslim inhabitants, the skill and proficiency required was quite within the physical or mental capability of a woman, the defence of one's homeland can lead to extraordinary feats of courage and accomplishment by both men and women, women are proved to have served in Muslim forces at the time, and more. Why could women not have sniped in WW1? If there are no overwhelmingly compelling reasons that they could not, then surely one must give credence to steady witnesses who claim that they did. Antony

[Guest]

But, with respect, Martin, what is "official evidence"? Must every event in history be recorded by a camera or a war diary before you believe it? Surely not? Do you believe Robert Kirkwood's story? I fear that our individual acceptance or rejection of such events is based largely on our own prejudices (that is not used pejoratively) and these are shaped by our own life experiences. One will believe where another will not. I find the stories acceptable because I can find no strong evidence to disprove them and can find other evidence that gives them some credence, to wit; it was only twenty years later that women snipers were clearly proved to have been used by a country that had many Muslim inhabitants, the skill and proficiency required was quite within the physical or mental capability of a woman, the defence of one's homeland can lead to extraordinary feats of courage and accomplishment by both men and women, women are proved to have served in Muslim forces at the time, and more. Why could women not have sniped in WW1? If there are no overwhelmingly compelling reasons that they could not, then surely one must give credence to steady witnesses who claim that they did. Antony

Anthony - To answer your specific questions - I would accept that it is completely possible that there were girl snipers, however I think it highly improbable at Gallipoli. 'Official evidence' would be a written report in a War Diary (Army Form C2118), an appendix to a war diary, official correspondence between a senior officer and Oglander (Author of the OH and arguably the single person who had the greatest access to information on Gallipoli), mention in one of the many despatches from Hamilton or his successor Monro, or a mention in the official Dardanelles report. By mention, I mean an eyewitness account, not reported speech. I would not include any published regimental history as they are demonstrably full of errors. There are to my knowledge over 20 different reports yet there is nothing in the Official documentation other than reported hearsay. It is also important to note that the British Official documents were locked up until 1965 so no-one had access to the material to counter many of the myths until this date.

To put this into context I have transcribed many dozens of War Diaries from Gallipoli, many dozens of personal diaries and also have transcribed many dozens of regimental histories as part of my research datatbase - total so far 178 separate original documents. The units are within the 2nd Mtd Div, 11th Div, 29th Div, 53rd Div, 10th Div, at Bn, Bde, and Div, level including the substantial Admin papers at Div level. It is over ten years of meticulous research and painstaking transcription. The data is on one very large spreadsheet (units running left to right and dates top to bottom) which allows me to compare War Diaries, personal diaries, OH correspondence, regimental histories etc across any single date between Jul 1st and the end of Dec 1915. It is a useful tool that exposes a lot of conflicts and errors as I am able to compare dozens of detailed accounts of the same event. There are a few threads in the Gallipoli section on some of the analysis on specific topics that has used the database as source material. I can safely say that the some of the diaries and especially the early regimental histories have many examples of exaggerated reports, mistakes, some perpetuated myths, plagiarism and even downright lies. Anyone who has read a War Diary and its complementary Regimental History will immediately recognise this. John Keegan writes eloquently about this in his critique of the historiography of military history. One glaring example is Henry Day MC "A Cavalry Chaplain" who was a notorious rumour monger who made up stories in a misguided attempt to raise morale. On the surface, few would regard an Officer's published account as suspect, especially an Army Chaplain and one who had been awarded the MC, yet meticulous research clearly demonstrates that this man was at best a serial exaggerator and at worst a compulsive liar. One could write a book on him. The ability to directly compare so many accounts across one platform exposes people like Henry Day very easily. I have gone way beyond Westlake. Indeed I have found so many errors in Westlake that I consider it to be unreliable as a reference document. I have also researched the official correspondence between Oglander and hundreds of senior surviving officers when he wrote the OH and have also researched the Oglander papers held in the Isle of Wight. My focus is on Suvla Bay, not Anzac or Helles. I can tell you for certain that within the surviving official documents that relate to the units that served at Suvla Bay although there are over a dozen mentions of the 'girl sniper' in various histories, there is nothing in the official documentation that would stand up as an eyewitness account. The body of material is absolutely gigantic. Having researched in minute detail a number of conflicting stories in Gallipoli, I think it is just so improbable that the girl sniper gets no mention at all in official documentation. It would have been such an important propaganda story, I personally believe it to be one of the many myths perpetuated by old soldiers embellishing stories.

A recent thread on Tekke Tepe gives a good example of how a myth developed that the British took Tekke Tepe on 9th August where Official documentary evidence demonstrates they didn't. The myth was started by a deluded Officer, believing he was the only living survivor, exaggerating the account and claiming in newspapers to have reached the peak. One account implies the CO of the leading Battalion died heroically near the summit, whereas he actually was bayoneted in the back as a POW at the foot of the hill, some 4 km from the alleged scene of his heroic stand. The real account clearly did not make good press and despite a mountain of hard evidence, the false story of the taking of Tekke Tepe, mainly driven by the deluded surviving Officer has contaminated more than a few modern histories. Fortunately, another surviving Officer's account was buried in the archives until 1967 and has exposed the myth, but to find that, one would have to wade through a mountain of uncatalogued papers in the OH correspondence. Not an easy task.

I am steeped in the western culture and discipline that something has to be proved empirically, rather than dis-proved. Some might call that a prejudice. Philosophically I can only take this approach, otherwise any mad story such as UFOs or Angels would have to be be taken as true unless 'disproved'. For example, there are wild, mysterious and mythical stories surrounding the disappearance of the Sandringham Company (often incorrectly reported as the Sandringham Battalion) of the 1st/5th Norfolks which have been disproved, yet persist in the popular mythical culture by people too lazy to do the hard yards in the archives.

I am not trying to convince anyone else. I respect the fact that others will have their own opinions. Whilst it is distinctly possible that there were girl snipers, I think in this case it is highly improbable for many of the arguments articulated by form pals above. We have to carefully distinguish between possibility and probability. I regard this as a myth in my very humble opinion. This is not a view just plucked out of the air. I believe it has fairly firm foundations built on a rigorous academic approach and ten years of forensic research of original documents. Others will disagree and that is their prerogative.

At risk of getting heavy on the psychology of memory and recollection, I think the girl sniper story exhibits two elements the psychologists would call "Availability Bias" and "Confirmation Bias". Availability Bias is the condition that views are based on information that is more readily available in our memories than information that is not. i.e. it is easier to accept a plethora of stories than to do the hard research - a major problem in Military History in my view. Confirmation Bias is the inclination to look for confirming evidence of an initial hypothesis rather than finding evidence that will disagree with the initial hypothesis. Kahneman and Tversky have written extensively on this and the "Problem of Induction" - formulating general views on the basis of insufficient information. Kahneman got the Nobel prize for this work and I think this debate over the girl sniper is exhibiting many of these traits.

Any mistakes are mine. Regards MG

[Piorun]

Fair comment. Yours, Antony

[Guest]

" Also describes a female sniper painted green who surrendered herself to the Scottish Horse. 1 November 1915. "

I was in Bells Library today, and saw the letter. It's very faint, but does mention a female sniper, painted green, and that she had a number of identity discs on her. It would appear he didn't see the woman himself. The 1st November date, is the date the letter was written, not the date of capture of any female sniper. I'm not permitted to post an image of the letter, and there is doubt as to whether I can post information. It is available at the Archives section at Bells Ref: MS305/46, along with 120-odd other letters.

Mike

[Guest]

There is reference to the Girl Sniper in "With the Field Artillery Brigade at Suvla Bay Landing - compiled from a diary by 'X'"....'X' was in fact Lt Col W J K Rettie DSO late CO of 59th Bde RFA. He left long correspondence with Aspinall-Oglander and much of the Artillery story in the OH is based almost verbatim on Retie's letters. He is mentioned in the OH. His letters are long and very articulate and reveal much about what was wrong at Suvla. He says...

" Amongst some of those snipers it seemed to be the fashion to collect identity discs from their victims when they could get them, and there was a yarn to the effect that a youth and a girl about seventeen years of age were captured armed with rifles and adorned with sixteen discs!"

Not the word 'yarn'. The letters are at TNA ref CAB45/244. Regards MG

[nthornton1979]

" Amongst some of those snipers it seemed to be the fashion to collect identity discs from their victims when they could get them, and there was a yarn to the effect that a youth and a girl about seventeen years of age were captured armed with rifles and adorned with sixteen discs!"

I would've thought it would be near impossible to 'get them'. Unless of course our chaps allowed her into the trench to collect it from their pal she'd just put a bullet through.

If she'd managed to collect 16 then I'd say her actual tally wouldv'e had a zero on the end.

DISCLAIMER: I am not for one minute suggesting she did (or didn't) actually existed

Neil

[michaeldr]

The Turkish sniper was brave and resourceful. As such, could they have collected dog-tags? If they had wanted to, I believe that they could.

I have repeated this story before (possibly even on an earlier page of this thread) but it's is worth repeating again. It's from Colonel Arthur Charles (Percussion Sahib) Fergusson CMG., DSO., CO the Kohat Mountain Battery, and appeared (courtesy of his son Col Kenneth Fergusson and the RA Historical Trust) in The Gallipolian No.85 Winter 1997.

"After we had been ashore quite a long time and were well dug in at 'Pifferpore' we always had at least one casualty per night which always occurred in the same place, just opposite our Mess. One night at dusk just after our Doctor had been talking about it, I noticed something white beside the road, just where the (sniping) casualties occurred. I sent a man to see what it was and he came back with a piece of white cloth. That night there were no casualties at that spot, but the next night there was a piece of white paper there. I had this taken away, again no casualties. After that it was the Mess Orderlies job to look out for and clear away marks from there every evening at dusk and casualties ceased. The modus operandi apparently was, the sniper laid his rifle on or a little to one side of the mark. When he saw it obscured he pulled the trigger, if the target was going one way he missed, if the other, he hit. There was so much rifle fire going on all round, he was not likely to be spotted from his firing within our lines."

The sniper who is lying for some time behind the enemy's lines and who can replace his marker on a track near the enemy's mess, could just as easily collect dog-tags.

… … … … … … … ..

The second point which I wish to address is how did the "legend" begin?

Forget that staged photograph by Ernest Brooks which was probably taken by dressing a Turkish PoW in green twigs and then standing him between two Australian cooks on Lemnos. Please have a look at a genuine photograph of a Turkish sniper here http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/P01094.002

and

And then ask yourself if the disguise does not remind you just a little of an Islamic lady's Burqa?

Could this have been how the story started?

regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

No mention of the elusive lady, but nevertheless an interesting first-hand account from a trawler skipper (a RN officer, on temporary loan from by HMS Queen Elizabeth)

The description is to be found on page 193 of The Naval Review, Vol IV, part II (1916)

quote: "I did not have steam till fairly late next day, May 1st, and then only had one trip (Anzac), taking some Turkish prisoners to one of the transports. They were a piratical-looking crowd, but seemed too tired to give any trouble. There were several snipers amongst them, who had been brought in that morning; one of them had shrubs and leaves sewn all over his clothing, and had been in full view of our men for some time before he was bowled out. Most of them, when found, were dug in up to their necks under a bush, with a large supply of food and over a thousand rounds of ammunition; often there was a bag of money as well."

[Guest]

Found this in Australasia triumphant! by Arthur St John Adcock Page 69

" One ingenious way of theirs was for a man to strip naked, paint himself green and sit up a convenient tree with a stock of provision; and as it was impossible to detect him among the leaves, and he only fired when an incautious head appeared above the trenches, he would often have a run of two or three days and do considerable damage before he could be located and disposed of. Or he would tie umbrageous branches all about his person lie near by in the open, looking like an innocent patch of scrub, till somebody caught the flash of his gun fire or on an incautious movement betrayed him. The Australians filled in a little time by snaking forth to hunt for these pests, and frequently caught them red handed and shot them down, or caught them alive and brought them in with all their greenery attached to them. More than once the snipers proved to be women, who were more vicious and implacable ever than the man " .............This was the state of affairs on the 5th of May.

Australasia triumphant! ; with the Australians and New Zealanders in the great war on land and sea

Mike

[truthergw]

I'll bet those umbrageous branches were a right bu**er. Did the author say why the snipers exposed themselves to the rude shocks of the Gallipolian weather? Not even a brolly or a parasol for the ladies?

[Guest]

I'll bet those umbrageous branches were a right bu**er. Did the author say why the snipers exposed themselves to the rude shocks of the Gallipolian weather? Not even a brolly or a parasol for the ladies?

Sounds like a bit of a suicide mission anyway, so perhaps they weren't too fussed about the discomfort of a branch or two, or a bit of sunburn.

It was published in 1916, and might even be the source of the rumour/fact?

Mike

[George Armstrong Custer]

If they were naked, does it say where they stuck the branches? I merely ask.....

George

[Guest]

If they were naked, does it say where they stuck the branches? I merely ask.....

George

Maybe a bit of (Turkish equivalent) of 'binder twine' the stuff used tae ho'd up ye'r breeks, in the guid old days,ken?

Mike

[George Armstrong Custer]

An awkward question well answered, Mike!

George

[Guest]

An awkward question well answered, Mike!

George

Thank you George. I reckon the story's just a yarn anyway

Mike

[ph0ebus]

Thank you George. I reckon the story's just a yarn anyway

Mike

All's quiet on the Western Frontal...

[Guest]

I found this in the Scottish Horse diary. Not a female sniper, but it does mention a female, in the right area, at the right time for post #313?

Dardanelles
Mounted Division
Scottish Horse Mounted Bgde

1/3rd Scottish Horse Vol 2

4/10/1915 " A reconnoitring patrol (Sgt J Archibald & H? Fraser L Squadron) was sent out after Demonstration. They got within 15 yds of Turkish lines. They heard about 10 men working with picks & shovels at some kind of dug-out behind fire trench. They saw no wire of any sort. They say they distinctly heard a woman's voice in the trenches. Owing to the moon they had to return without examining the trenches further. "

Edit 08:01



Mike

[Hywyn]

With apologies if it has been mentioned before upthread but it seems as if the women snipers were active on the Western Front in 1918 as well.

"Sychdyn-born Griffith Piercy was just 21 years old when he fell in battle at the end of the First World War – just five months after his brother William was killed in action.

The Royal Welsh Fusiliers private had spent four years working alongside equines who did their bit for the war effort, ferrying troops to and fro in huge carts and trams.

Decorated with the British War Medal 1914-20, Victory Medal 1914-1919 and the 1914-15 Star, Griffith’s short life was brought to an abrupt and tragic end on October 1, 1918.

Viv said: “Griffith fell at Overs Ridge and was listed as killed in action.

“The strong story that has come down the family, told to them by Griff's comrade, Alf Hughes, was that Griffith was shot by a female sniper. Alf also said that they ‘got her’ later.”

Above from this Daily Post article today

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/02/20/northop-couple-uncover-tragic-tales-of-real-war-horses-and-their-brave-riders-55578-30363567/

Hywyn