Tom A McCluskey Posted 3 September , 2006 Share Posted 3 September , 2006 John, Please find enclosed an Argyll kilt with box pleats (bear in mind this is a new kilt). Hope this helps you picture what a box pleat looks like. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 3 September , 2006 Share Posted 3 September , 2006 Here is a normal (modern day) Black Watch kilt Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 4 September , 2006 Share Posted 4 September , 2006 John, Out of interest I was perusing the net, and found a brilliant example of an Argyll Kilt. The chap that bought it thought it was a Black Watch Kilt. It even states on it A & S H, O R & Pipers (Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, Other Ranks & Pipers) . And he still thought it was Black Watch. http://www.geektimes.com/michael/culture/c...watch/kilt.html If you look a the kilt (not the auctioneer one, the one from the back) you can see the that the tartan is 'bright' compared to traditional Black Watch tartan, you can also see the box pleats, and the way the folds do not show the full sett of the tartan (it just looks like bright, horizontal lines) - Argyll Kilt. Again, hope this helps, and hop this guy eventually finds a Black Watch Kilt Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachlan07 Posted 8 June , 2008 Share Posted 8 June , 2008 Sorry I'm a bit late for this thread ! From my recollection of a book I read many moons ago, Argylls' r & f wore Black Watch pattern in common with the BW r & f and officers, presumably pattern 1, but A&SH officers and WO's had a slightly different pattern - could this be the 1A ? Also, I recall reading that BW kilts and pleating showed off the blue tones while the A&SH kilts and their pleating highlighted the green coolour better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted 9 June , 2008 Share Posted 9 June , 2008 Hi John and Joe, I believe that the tartans were exactly the same but the pleats at the back of the kilt were different - one had square 'box' pleats (The A&SH I think) and the other had the conventional folded pleats. The 2001 Khaki Chums tour of the Somme was a Highlander Tour and every particiant had to represent a different kilted unit which served on the Somme. Of the 36 Battalions which fought on the Somme we managed 24 different ones. The pic shows the McChums on 1st July 2001 marching through Beaumont Hamel on the way to Thiepval. I'm sure there is a kilt fettishist out there somewhere who can confirm those pleats. Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted 9 June , 2008 Share Posted 9 June , 2008 Taff, In your photo in post #9 the McChums appear to wearing what I know as 'Bratties' over their kilts. According to my aunt, 'brattie' is the Gaelic word for 'apron' and is worn to protect the kilt from mud etc. A number of years ago she gave me her father's (my gransfathers) brattie, from when he sevred in the 7th A&SH in WW1 (No kilt though, that was long since lost). Any body have any info on bratties and the wearing of them with kilts? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 9 June , 2008 Share Posted 9 June , 2008 Andy Discussed fairly recently : HERE and at more length: HERE in what started as a discussion of drab kilts. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted 10 June , 2008 Share Posted 10 June , 2008 Thanks Chris, Very interesting links! Loads of info on the subject, although no mention of the Scottish gaelic name 'brattie' . Maybe my aunt was mistaken... I have the kilt apron made from thin khaki material with a pocket at the front, which my granddad must have used between Dec 1915 and Feb 1917 when he served with the A&SH. Cheers, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 June , 2008 Share Posted 10 June , 2008 Andy, any chance of a picture? - is it a full wrap around or just an "apron"? I wouldn't asssume your aunt was mistaken on the name - sounds perfectly reasonable to me and I'm not sure the discussions here went in that direction. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 10 June , 2008 Share Posted 10 June , 2008 I have seen somewhere in my many books a poem about the 'brattie' I will see if i can find it and get back to you. Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 10 June , 2008 Share Posted 10 June , 2008 Found it. The poem was called 'the Brattie' and was written by Neil Munro. It appears in Trevor Royle's book 'In Flanders Fields'. I will try and find out if there is a word similar to Brattie in the Gaelic. Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o j kirby Posted 10 June , 2008 Share Posted 10 June , 2008 John, If the pin is original to the kilt (very hard to verify) then your issue kilt could be to the A&SH. Oddly, the way to tell between RH and ASH is by the Kilt fastener. ASH used a safety pin. RH used Glass headed pins Also the: Camerons used solid brass headed pins. Seaforth and Gordon kilts were fixed by two buckle closures using lengths of black leather strapping. If you find a kilt with three strap closure its 1930's or later. The Kilt fasteners are actually hard to find. Take care Joe Sweeney Hello! This has all been a very worthwhile topic. I have three WW1 Kilts: Seaforth, a government tartan...and Gordon highlanders. The Gordons kilt was with the man's Glengarry and T.O.S.,and named and numbered to him inside. This kilt has the 3 strap fastening- it all looks a bit imprivised, but definitely WW1. The soldier transferred to the Royal Engineers later on in the war. Owain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 June , 2008 Share Posted 10 June , 2008 Hello! This has all been a very worthwhile topic. I have three WW1 Kilts: Seaforth, a government tartan...and Gordon highlanders. The Gordons kilt was with the man's Glengarry and T.O.S.,and named and numbered to him inside. This kilt has the 3 strap fastening- it all looks a bit imprivised, but definitely WW1. The soldier transferred to the Royal Engineers later on in the war. Owain Owain, (not meaning to hijack this thread but....) Do you have the chap's name and number? It seems a good few 1/4th Bn men transferred to the RE. I keep running accross this reference and I am trying to establish a pattern. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 4th Gordons, I'm being badly let down by technology at the moment, so I can't attach a photo to this post. Sorry. It is a 'half' apron, and is very similar to the photo in the 2nd thread which you posted. Interesting that the half aprons were unofficial 'mods' to the full apron. Cheers, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o j kirby Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 Owain, (not meaning to hijack this thread but....) Do you have the chap's name and number? It seems a good few 1/4th Bn men transferred to the RE. I keep running accross this reference and I am trying to establish a pattern. Chris Hi Chris, Th man was S/9025 L/Cpl Henry Osborne, but he was with the 10th Gordon highlanders. He was renumbered 112220 when transferred to the RE. I don't have my information to hand, but I think he rose in promotion. This probably doesn't fit into your pattern with the 4th but at least it answers your question. Cheers Owain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 11 July , 2008 Share Posted 11 July , 2008 Hi All, I have just returned from a forum meeting where one of the chaps brought along a 1917 Black watch kilt. The kilt was manufactured in Glasgow, and as described it has no buckles (at all), it is described as a Royal Highlanders kilt, and it has barrel pleats. Hope this helps Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeesown Posted 12 July , 2008 Share Posted 12 July , 2008 Hi three pics of Black Watch Kilt 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 12 July , 2008 Share Posted 12 July , 2008 Gary, Excellent, many thanks for posting the photos. I will put a post action report on the meetings thread tomorrow. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 13 July , 2008 Share Posted 13 July , 2008 Tom-Dundeesown, That very nice Kilt is RACD pattern 7952/1913, 12 December 1913, for the Royal Highlander’s. I have a nice 1918 dated version with a very nice paper label. Yes, all Royal Highlanders Kilts had Barrel--also known as a cane or round pleat, until very recently (1930' or 40's). I published details of Kilts in the April issue of Militaria Magazine. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 13 July , 2008 Share Posted 13 July , 2008 Joe, Could I trouble you for a copy of the article please? Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albany Posted 27 November , 2008 Share Posted 27 November , 2008 Tom-Dundeesown, That very nice Kilt is RACD pattern 7952/1913, 12 December 1913, for the Royal Highlander's. I have a nice 1918 dated version with a very nice paper label. Yes, all Royal Highlanders Kilts had Barrel--also known as a cane or round pleat, until very recently (1930' or 40's). I published details of Kilts in the April issue of Militaria Magazine. Joe Sweeney I'd also be very grateful for a copy of the article. Many thanks, Hugh Tulloch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmanuel bril Posted 27 November , 2008 Share Posted 27 November , 2008 Hello , i confirm , articles made by Joe in the french magazine militaria , is ..very nice , perfect with every details many thanks Joe if you like scottish clothing of the great war , you must to buy it ! cheers Toplexil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigT Posted 28 November , 2008 Share Posted 28 November , 2008 Just to confuse the issue, I have found that the Yellow stripe in Gordon Tartan doesnt show up on old black & white photo's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o j kirby Posted 29 June , 2017 Share Posted 29 June , 2017 Hello, Can anyone share any of the images from the French Militaria Magazine of April 2008 of Kilts and any other Scottish military uniform? Many thanks, Owain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marion Foster Posted 4 December , 2023 Share Posted 4 December , 2023 Has anyone got of a copy of Brig Gen Joe Sweeney's article about kilts published in the April 2008 Issue of Militaria Magazine that would be happy to share with me. I am founder trainer for the College of Master Kilt Tailors and I feel this would be valuable information for the students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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