Kilt experts wanted

[john in minnesota]

I'm finding conflicting information about the difference between Black Watch and Argyle/Sutherland tartan patterns. Can anyone post a photo of two kilts side-by-side? Thanks, John

[Tom A McCluskey]

John,

Black Watch tartan is Government Tartan No 1.

Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wear Government Tartan No 1A.

They are very similar.

Hope this is of use, as I dont have a picture handy to compare

Tom McC

[DrB]

Basically, the Black Watch or Government tartan was darker than the Argyll and Sutherland one, (which was, surprize!..lighter!) especially when comparing officers kilts.

They are exactly the same otherwise.

DrB

[john in minnesota]

Basically, the Black Watch or Government tartan was darker than the Argyll and Sutherland one, (which was, surprize!..lighter!) especially when comparing officers kilts.

They are exactly the same otherwise.

DrB

Ok, here's a photo of my two kilts: the one on the left is a tailor made example while that on the right is issue. Are they both variations of Black Watch or is the one on the right "lighter" and thus Sutherland? It doesn't appear lighter but more of a blue-green

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

This may help to cloud the waters further:~<::Clan Sutherland Tartans::>

1}Argyll & Sutherland{Blackwatch} Tartan

2} Black Watch Tartan

[Joe Sweeney]

John,

In WWI there was absolutely no difference:

The 1915 Priced Vocabulary stated (this is backed by the RACD pattern books):

No. 1 (42nd)

Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

Royal Highlanders

Alternate dark green and blue stripes (about 2 ¼ inches) separated by black stripes (about 1 inch) each way as a groundwork. Green stripes intersected by narrow black stripes and blue stripes intersected by double narrow black stripes.

In WWI there were 8 numbered Tartan's and one Scots Guards. (this does not include Tartans for London Scottish or Liverpool Scottish, etc)

The No 1a is post-war.

Joe Sweeney

[john in minnesota]

John,

Thanks Joe, That was exactly the information I was looking for. Next time I plan to spend a ton of $$ I'll call on you first - this time I got lucky

[Joe Sweeney]

John,

If the pin is original to the kilt (very hard to verify) then your issue kilt could be to the A&SH.

Oddly, the way to tell between RH and ASH is by the Kilt fastener.

ASH used a safety pin.

RH used Glass headed pins

Also the:

Camerons used solid brass headed pins.

Seaforth and Gordon kilts were fixed by two buckle closures using lengths of black leather strapping.

If you find a kilt with three strap closure its 1930's or later.

The Kilt fasteners are actually hard to find.

Take care

Joe Sweeney

[Chief_Chum]

Hi John and Joe,

I believe that the tartans were exactly the same but the pleats at the back of the kilt were different - one had square 'box' pleats (The A&SH I think) and the other had the conventional folded pleats.

The 2001 Khaki Chums tour of the Somme was a Highlander Tour and every particiant had to represent a different kilted unit which served on the Somme. Of the 36 Battalions which fought on the Somme we managed 24 different ones. The pic shows the McChums on 1st July 2001 marching through Beaumont Hamel on the way to Thiepval.

I'm sure there is a kilt fettishist out there somewhere who can confirm those pleats.

Cheers,

Taff

[Tom A McCluskey]

John,

Counter to what Joe said There was a difference and has been since at least 1822. Every bayonet within a tartan wearing Scottish Regiment (with the exceptions of the Camerons - Who wore Cameron Erracht) wore a variation of Government Tartan - or Government tartan.

MacKenzie - Government with Red & White Stripes

Gordons - Government with Yellow Lines

Argylls - Government lighter in colour

The Argyll tartan now, has a slightly different set, which may be what is referred to as after the war.

Hope this helps

Tom McC

[Chief_Chum]

Another picture from the 2001 Tour showing the Chums at the 51st (Highland) Division Memorial, Beaumont Hamel. Note the variation in kilts. From left to right:

Seaforth; Black Watch; Seaforth; Cameron; Liverpool Scottish; Gordon; South African Scottish; 9th Royal Scots; London Scottish; Argyl & Sutherland; Seaforth...

[Joe Sweeney]

Taff,

You may be correct on the pleat.

I think both RH and AS&H Kilts patterns were sealed to separate patterns with a mandate of using No.1 Tartan.

I'll have to go and check.

Take care,

Joe Sweeney

[Grovetown]

John,

Also the:

Camerons used solid brass headed pins.

Seaforth and Gordon kilts were fixed by two buckle closures using lengths of black leather strapping.

If you find a kilt with three strap closure its 1930's or later.

Joe Sweeney

Interesting this...

I have a Camerons kilt with 1915 paper label; with two buckled closures attached to the kilt with lengths of (old worn) green 'web' tape (ie kind of cotton hemming material; not that used for equipment). Knowing that the Camerons weren't closed such, I have assumed the guy added it for convenience - or they're a fiction. Feel very contemporary though.

I also have a 6-18 dated/ service and Bn numbered MacKenzie for the Seaforths; with two buckled closures, also using lengths of web tape, as above; this time in white.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[Tom A McCluskey]

John,

Black Watch - Rounded Pleats

Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders - box pleats

Tom McC

PS - My father had kilt pins in 1962 - he said that sometimes it used to smart when shouldering arms

[Tom A McCluskey]

John,

Also, have a look at this from the Scottish Military Historical Society:

http://www.btinternet.com/~james.mckay/ash9193.htm

Regimental Tartan

Kilt of the 42nd (Government) tartan. It is worn by all ranks and by the band and pipers.

Until relatively recently, the version of the Government tartan worn by the Argylls was a slightly lighter shade than worn by other regiments. It was clearly distinguishable, as is the elaborate silk ribboned panel on the front flap of the kilt worn by officers and senior non-commissioned officers.

The Argylls are the only regiment to wear a plain red and white dicing on the glengarry and feather bonnet.

Again hope this helps

Tom McC

[truthergw]

John,

Black Watch - Rounded Pleats

Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders - box pleats

Tom McC

PS - My father had kilt pins in 1962 - he said that sometimes it used to smart when shouldering arms

The received wisdom in late 50s, early sixties was that a kilt with pins could be snugged down tighter than one with straps. Incidentally, if one wore anything under the kilt it made it feel very insecure as if the kilt was in danger of falling down. So there is nothing worn under a kilt, it's all working fine.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Tom R

Sounds like sense to me

Tom McC

[john in minnesota]

John,

Black Watch - Rounded Pleats

Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders - box pleats

Tom McC

PS - My father had kilt pins in 1962 - he said that sometimes it used to smart when shouldering arms

Ok, so are these "box" or "round" pleats:

[Chief_Chum]

Hi John,

They are round pleats (ie Black Watch). Box pleats are, literally, box-shaped and appear square at the bottom.

We bought a few unissued original WW2-dated Mackenzie tartan kilts for the 2001 trip and they were all fastened with two straps and buckles - and all had the loops of green tape inside the waistband.

Cheers,

Taff

[Joe Sweeney]

I had forgotten about the pleat.

The rank and file A&SH pattern most up to date for WWI was pattern 8055/1914, 8 May 1914 which stipluated the box pleat. This pattern was actually identical to the 1906 version except now there were 17 sizes.

The rank and file Royal Highlanders Kilt was 7952/1913, 12 December 1913 which stipulated a round pleat.

Both made of No. 1 Tartan. The No. 1a was approved in the early 1920's when there were over 11 approved patterns of Tartan not including the sub letters. There are actually detailed records surviving of the evolution of the Kilt and the various Tartans. (I haven't gone through all--mostly rank and file there were also Serjeants and Staff quality kilts approved separately). in 1914 there were only 9 Approved WO tartans. This increased substantially in 1914 as Tartans then kilts were approved by the WO for the Terriers such as Forbes and Hodden Grey (London Scottish), Kilts for Teriers were not bought or approved by the WO prior to 14/15 they came from the TFA's. Also Kilts for the HLI Battalions were introduced based on existing approved Tartans, Canadian and South African tartans such as Douglas and Murray. In the early 20's additional Tartnas were approved that started the sub letter phenomena--I actually think the ASH and BW color difference started here and has been prescribed an ancient lineage that does not exist.

Not sure how a claim of a different shade of Tartan for A&SH can be made with only a single stipulated No. 1 Tartan in Army inventory and RACD approved from Boer War through WWI.

Straps of variuos sorts are commonly found on Kilts to units stipulated to be only pinned. In the Priced Vocabulary the straps are inventoried separately from the kilts although designated for Gordons and Seaforths. I think the Pre-war Regulars were far more likely to adhere to the straps or pins

Actually the straps were supposed by on one side but they are commonly found on both.

Here are a few of my kilts.

The first is a serjeants quality BW kilt. No straps and never had any dated 1915.

The second group is to Pte H Mountain--Served mostly in 2Bn Seaforths his kilt is configured per regulation

Joe Sweeney

[Joe Sweeney]

This Kilt was to Corp'l Reid of the 11th Gordons and various TR units. He only served in the UK. His Kilt is configured per regulation.

This Seaforths Kilt is 1916 dated and has the straps on both sides.

This is a kilt to the 48th Bn CEF or one of its derivative Bn's. This is fixed by straps.

So an interesting array of fixing the kilts can be found.

I also have (no photograph) Kilts to the 6th HLI with a nice paper label with correct Mckenzie tartan No. 5 which is slightly different than the Seaforths No. 2 Tartan (by small dimensions of stripes in tartan).

A Gordon Kilt to the 1/6Bn with straps on both sides.

I also ahave a Camerons Kilt (worn by a member of 43Rd Bn CEF) with not straps and fixed by pins.

Hope some find this of interest.

[Tom A McCluskey]

John,

The blanket pin (Right Hand Kilt) was not an accoutrement worn by the 1 & 2 Bn Black Watch. Don't know about Territorial Force or New Army - but I don't think I have seen any worn.

A box pleat would be similar in style to the pleat of a chest pocket.

Hope this helps

Tom McC

[truthergw]

John,

The blanket pin (Right Hand Kilt) was not an accoutrement worn by the 1 & 2 Bn Black Watch. Don't know about Territorial Force or New Army - but I don't think I have seen any worn.

A box pleat would be similar in style to the pleat of a chest pocket.

Hope this helps

Tom McC

I have only seen a blanket pin worn in a kilt when walking out. It was fixed after you had got out and was used to keep apron of the kilt from blowing up. You had to keep sober enough to remember to take it out before returning to camp. A provost sergeant could see a thing like that through several brick walls.

[john in minnesota]

I have only seen a blanket pin worn in a kilt when walking out. It was fixed after you had got out and was used to keep apron of the kilt from blowing up. You had to keep sober enough to remember to take it out before returning to camp. A provost sergeant could see a thing like that through several brick walls.

Thanks for all the information - I sure appreciate everyone's help! John

[Tom A McCluskey]

John,

My father (Black Watch) remembers pinning his kilt with black headed pins resembling hat pins (1962). His second kilt (1970) did not have pins, it had buckles, this did not matter as they were easily removed by the regimental tailor (by this time he was used to the pins).

1st Bn Black Watch Standing Orders 1906 stated that the kilt was to be fastened using 3 black-headed pins:

Three black-headed pins are to be used for fastening and care must be taken that they are not passed through the pleats but through the body of the kilt.

Standing Orders:

http://www.blackwatch.50megs.com/standing.htm

By the way, old kilts were turned into trews at public expense. Handy for service in India , walking out etc.

Tom McC