N.C.O.

[Mark Crame]

Why do the RAF have to change things? You have:

AC2, AC1, LAC then Corporal - 3 Privates and no Lance Corporals? You then have a Flight Sergeant and a WO1.

And the Bleeding Navy! Junior Seaman, Ordinary Seaman, Petty Officer and Fleet Petty Officer? That's nowhere near enough! Perhaps it's because they can't find enough good men to hold rank.

I must defend one particular Officer though, my old Platoon Commander, ex-ranker and sometime punk singer. Went to Afghanistan to do something at some point in the '80's, is now in the Balkans working for the UN I believe. He was great, could read a map, and was a very competent soldier - one of, if not the best in the Battalion I'd say. A very rare exception.

[Doc2]

By now he probably doesn't even care...but if it moves, salute it!

And, of course it is different in the US military. All enlisted personnel above private first class are Non-commissioned Officers (Corporal through Sergeant Major of the Army). Basic rule is they lead other soldiers in response to guidance/orders from officers. In the past, enlisted personnel of the Specialist grades (e.g. Specialist 4 and Specialist 5) were not legally NCO's because they were in technical positions and were not in leadership positions, but that distinction has blurred greatly in recent years. Warrant Officers, are not NCO's-- they are officers. In the U.S. Army, at least, officers do not refer to each others as Mister, but by rank ("sir" if they are senior to you) by first name (if equal in rank) and either by first name or rank if junior to you (depending on your command or personal relationship with them). In the past, Warrant Officers were all referred to as "Mister", but that has pretty much gone away, and most seem to be referred to as "Chief". Doc2

[24225978]

After reading through all the above, I think there is still some confusion about titles and meanings of army ranks.

Private soldiers are as has been said, Sapper, Trooper, Fusilier, Guardsman etc. according to Regiment or Corps.

Lance-Corporal. One chevron (stripe) except in Foot Guards where two chevrons are worn (according to myth, Queen Victoria didn't like the sight of one chevron and decreed that two would be worn by Guards). Lance-Corporal is only used when written, the word 'Lance' is dropped when addressing a L/Corporal.

Corporal. Two chevrons. (Guards L/Corporals are referred to as Corporal) and in the Foot Guards the equivalent rank of Corporal is Lance-Sergeant, they wear three chevrons and have all the priviledges of the Sergeant's Mess. They can be differentiated from Sergeants when wearing No. 1 Dress by their chevrons being white as opposed to gold. (Lance-Sgt. used to be common in other Infantry regiments at the time of the Great War too).

Sergeant. Three chevrons.

Colour/Staff Sergeant. Three chevrons with a small crown above. Infantry regiments have Colour Sergeants as opposed to Staff Sgts. This is because they historically attended the Regimental Colours but apart from when the colours are paraded this ceremonial role has morphed into a separate rank.

Warrant Officers. In the army there are two grades:-

Class II, these are otherwise known as Sergeant-Majors, either Company Sergeant Major or Battery Sergeant Major, Squadron Seargeant Major etc. They are called Sir by all subordinate ranks and Sergeant Major by superior ranks. They wear a crown on the lower sleeve. Drum Major's tend to be WO II but may be a WO I.

Class I, sometimes known as Regimental Sergeant Major. RSM is an appointment, WO I's are not always RSM's. The Guards often have WO I's appointed as Drill-Sergeant to assist in Ceremonial duties (not so affectionately referred to as The Drill-Pig!) Called Sir by all subordinate ranks and Mister (name) by superior ranks or sometimes RSM or even just Sergeant Major. WO I's wear the Royal Coat of Arms as a rank badge on the lower sleeve or sometimes on the upper arm on No. 1 Dress.

Warrant Officers as stated are somewhere between Commisioned ranks and other NCO's. They hold the Queen's Warrant. Theirs is the Sergeants Mess but are called Sir by subordinates. As they are not Commisioned they still fall into the NCO category. (Confusing innit?)

The correct form of address for commisioned ranks is always Sir upwards. The rank is used downwards. The exception here is lieutenants who are universally referred to as Mister (name)

When it comes to the Household Cavalry and all their Corporals, I've never managed to work it out!

[Jerrymurland]

When it comes to the Household Cavalry and all their Corporals, I've never managed to work it out!

Not surprised about that! funny lot the Cavalry........When I was in Aden in 1967 our CSM referred to all officers and men of the Queen's Own Hussars as Qu##rs on Horseback, from that moment on it was impossible to salute any of their officers without laughing - not that we went in for saluting much !

Jerry

[Muerrisch]

Quote: Warrant Officers as stated are somewhere between Commisioned ranks and other NCO's. They hold the Queen's Warrant. Theirs is the Sergeants Mess but are called Sir by subordinates. As they are not Commisioned they still fall into the NCO category.

No, not in normal usage. Otherwise, why would lists, orders, Rolls of Honour etc be regarding "Officers, Warrant Officers, Non Commissioned Officers and ........."?

Edited 17 December , 2005 by langleybaston1418

[Guest]

By now he probably doesn't even care...but if it moves, salute it!

.....and if it doesn't, paint it!

[Mark Crame]

For those seeking logic, please go to the stores and ask the CQMS for some. Tell him it is on the shelf next to Army Intelligence.

The army doesn't require logic. Why is irrelevant. Yes, SIR! is the only real answer to anything.

[joseph]

Are Warrants granted by the State not Royalty and signed by the Minister for the relevant arm of the service. Now the Minister of Defence.

Army Intelligence. Is this a contradiction in terms?

Regards Darling

[Steven Broomfield]

Someone - long way back - mentioned 'Air' Rank in the RAF. Presumably this is the same as 'Field' Rank in the army...i.e. officers over a certain status (Colonels etc upwards). There - I thought it needed stirring again.

Also, no-one's mentioned the appointment of Conductor in the RAOC. Did a TA camp once when one of our lesser-spotted radioment was heard to say "Well, what does he fecking conduct then?" Collapse of stout party ensued.

[PhilB]

Presumably this is the same as 'Field' Rank in the army...i.e. officers over a certain status (Colonels etc upwards).

Shouldn`t it be Major and above? Phil B

[Mr_Sunray]

I must defend one particular Officer though ... a very competent soldier - one of, if not the best in the Battalion I'd say. A very rare exception.

The only bad officer I met was the spotty herbert in JIB, Shroncliffe. Horrible little twit. I would have liked to have milled a few rounds with him - oooh, that sounds like a double entendre!

The best officer I ever served with was on old company commander & CO, Pat Mercer (never ever called him Pat of course ), who is now MP for Newark and I believe, still, Shadow Minister for Homeland Security. He was soldier from the top drawer, an inspiring leader. Then again, most I met were of an extremely high calibre.

Steve

[PhilB]

The best officer I ever served with was on old company commander & CO, Pat Mercer (never ever called him Pat of course ), who is now MP for Newark

Steve

Patrick was the tour guide on a US Civil War tour I made 4 years ago. It was several days before I discovered he was an MP and several more before I found he was a retired full colonel. As an ex NS corporal myself, he could have been condescending but he wasn`t and was unfailingly polite and down to earth. He was particularly interesting on the subject of his military experiences. I`m sure he thought equally well of you, Steve!

[24225978]

Quote: Warrant Officers as stated are somewhere between Commisioned ranks and other NCO's. They hold the Queen's Warrant. Theirs is the Sergeants Mess but are called Sir by subordinates. As they are not Commisioned they still fall into the NCO category.

No, not in normal usage. Otherwise, why would lists, orders, Rolls of Honour etc be regarding "Officers, Warrant Officers, Non Commissioned Officers and ........."?

Perhaps I should have made it clear that in the context of my reply, WO's are not 'Commisioned', they therefore "fall into the NCO category."

[24225978]

Are Warrants granted by the State not Royalty and signed by the Minister for the relevant arm of the service. Now the Minister of Defence.

A Minister is 'a Minister of the Crown' - effectively on behalf of the Sovereign. After all, it is HMG, whatever they do, they do in her name (whether she agrees with it or not!)

[Muerrisch]

RAF Air rank does NOT equate with Army Field Rank.

RAF: Junior officers PO FO FltLt, Senior Officers SLdr WgCdr Gp Capt, Air Officers Air Commodore [NATO one-star] upwards.

Army: Subalterns 2Lt, Lt, then Captains, Field Officers Maj to Brigadier [NATO one-star], General Officers Maj Gen and upwards.

[Guest Braganza]

RN: Commodores (1 star) and above = Flag Rank

Army: Brigadiers and above = General Rank (although the "General" was removed from "Brigadier General" some time ago).

RAF: Air Commodores and above = Air Rank.

Everyone of Lance Corporal's rank and above is technically an "officer". OED definition is "person holding authority in navy, army, air force or mercantile marine especially with commission" (my italics).

Lance Corporal to Colour Sergeant or Staff Sergeant inclusive are Non Commissioned Officers.

WOs 1 and 2 are Warrant Officers - the Warrant is signed by the Secretary of State for Defence.

2nd Lieutenants and above are Commissioned Officers, the Commission signed by the Sovereign. And, of course, use of the word "officers" is common shorthand almost invariably referring to this group only.

And, as someone pointed out, correct designations often say things like "Officers, Warrant Officers, Non Commissioned Officers and men". You will also come across "Officers and Other Ranks".

[Muerrisch]

Army: Brigadiers and above = General Rank (although the "General" was removed from "Brigadier General" some time ago).

Are you able to give a reference for this assertion? Saying it is so does not necessarily make it so. My serving contacts believe that a Brigadier is no longer a General Officer.

[Paul Hederer]

As well as not saluting an N.C.O, you don't call them sir either. They don't seem to like it for some reason

Because they work for a living!

Paul

[joseph]

Rank and rank structure within the forces, is an absolute science each person had to know where they stood. The Officers structure was based on the same principle as today and is numbered in the Order of Rank and command this is 1 to 14 Admiral of the Fleet No1 to Midshipman No14.

Flag Officers.

KR & AI 1913 Chapter III section II Article 192

Officers.

Relative Rank of Officers- Navy and Army

KR & AI 1913 Chapter III section II Article 219

Warrant Officers

In the RN are ranked with the officers and are No13 this is also the case with the Army, the equivalent ranks are;

KR & AI 1913 Chapter III section II Article 219

Gunners, Boatswains, Signal Boatswains, Warrant Telegraphist, Chief Master At Arms, Artificer Engineers, Warrant Mechanicians, Warrant Writers, Head Stewards, Instructors in Cookery, Head Schoolmaster, Carpenters, Warrant Electricians, Warrant Armourers.

Equivalent to.

1st Class Staff Sergeant Majors, Army Service Corps Conductors,Army Ordnance Corps Master Gunners 1st Class, 1st Class Staff Sergeant Majors, Army Pay Corps; Army Schoolmasters; but junior to the above ranks.

NCO,

Appointed to or Promoted to a Rank where he can give a lawful order to his subordinates,

The lowest Rank in the RN that can give a lawful order is the Leading Rate in the army a Lance Corporal, not taking into account Special Command which is a separate subject.

Again the Order of Rank and Command is by number and is in KR & AI Appendix XV

The numbers run from No1 to No108 No1 Being the Master at Arms and No 108 being the Boy Servant.

Numbers 1 to 71 are NCO and have the authority to give lawful orders.

Regards Charles

[damandblast]

By now he probably doesn't even care...but if it moves, salute it!

OMG!

I have to say errmmm Sirs? being as EVERYBODY on here is above my lowly rank, that this thread is extremely funny, but very confusing!!!!

And please, don't try to explain it to me again, I don't think I can cope!

Di

[joseph]

Mark,

And where exactly does the Millitary Police fit into your Rank structure?

Charles

[damandblast]

Look, Di, it's quite simple. pay attention.

It starts with, from the bottom:

You

Shithead

Your Section Commander

Sergeant. The Boss.

Old bloke from the stores / cookhouse

God

THEN Officers

Rupert the *****

Rupert

Rupert who at least delegates the map

Rupert in the Landrover

Rupert the bear, standing with God who keeps him on the straight and narrow

Rodney

Wodney

Wadney

Wuedney

Wuedeneey (Except for Gough, who was great)

Wueeedneeee (Except for French who was a martinet and a fool)

Yesss Sir! Got it Sir!

Di

[Mark Crame]

"and where exactly does the Millitary Police fit into your Rank structure"

Oh dear, I feel something coming on here........... (could it be merely that they have no-one that doesn't hold rank?)

[per ardua per mare per terram]

And the Bleeding Navy! Junior Seaman, Ordinary Seaman, Petty Officer and Fleet Petty Officer? That's nowhere near enough! Perhaps it's because they can't find enough good men to hold rank.

Junior seamen, do you mean boys? In the army there were buglers who were under 18.

I’ve not heard of Fleet Petty Officers, Chiefs yes.

You missed out Able Seamen, Leading Seamen and the Warrant ranks.

All Able Seamen were good enough to out rank a private, army issue.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Are Warrants granted by the State not Royalty and signed by the Minister for the relevant arm of the service. Now the Minister of Defence.

As I understand it (check the regs as I’m usually wrong) warrants come from i) The Admiralty, ii) The War Office, iii) The Air Ministry for our period. They were/are HM armed forces NOT the governments, so secretary of states signatures would be pp the monarch.

Even now Mr Blair is only the Prime Minister of the Crown and the powers that he used to go to war were the prerogative of the Crown.