N.C.O.

[steve140968]

Can someone please tell me what a 'non commissioned officer' is ? Many thanks , Steve .

[squirrel]

An "officer" who does not hold the Queen's/King's commission.

Regimental Seargeant Major downwards.

[Mark Crame]

I'll stick with the main ranks, ie that of most units.

You join as a Private. Promotion would then follow the route Lance Corporal, Corporal, Sergeant, Warrant Officer 2nd Class (ie Colour Sergeant) then Warrant Officer 1st Class (Regimental Serrgeant major, for Example). That's the highest you can go without appointment by the monarch.

As stated, different units have different names for ranks, ie Lance Sergeant, Bombardier, Staff Sergeant, Darling (sorry, thinking of the Navy here!).

The Queens (or Kings) Commission would be from 2nd Lieutenant upwards, which is a 'proper' officer, and therefore insignia on your shoulder rather than your upper arm (lower arm for Sergeant Majors etc, although most ranks are worn on removable sleeves on the front of combat smocks these days). You always salute an officer, you never salute (unles syou are an officer returning it) an otehr rank - ie Private - WO1. Except you are saluting the commision (ie the Royal Appointment I guess) not the man.

The time-honoured fashion of gaining a commission is to first be christened Rupert, and secondly to be unaware of the correct way up of holding a map. And know that a compass is for drawing circles only.

[Stebie9173]

And I see you've made 2nd Lieutenant, Mark.

Steve.

[barrieduncan]

As well as not saluting an N.C.O, you don't call them sir either. They don't seem to like it for some reason

[roger]

As well as not saluting an N.C.O, you don't call them sir either. They don't seem to like it for some reason

Not strictly true, Warrant Officers are called Sir and I liked being called Sir, mind you it was better than darling but I was in the navy

Roger.

[barrieduncan]

My mistake, I always thought you called an NCO by their rank, not sir. Is it the same in the army as in the Navy?

I remember being in the cadets and gettin a right b******ing from our CSM cos I called him sir, it was quite traumatic for a 13 y/o Then again, he was a bit of a git!

[Mr_Sunray]

My mistake, I always thought you called an NCO by their rank, not sir. Is it the same in the army as in the Navy?

In the army, always call the CSM & RSM sir, but never salute! If you do, you receive that standard reply of 'don't salute me , I work for a living'!!

Steve

Edited 16 December , 2005 by Mr_Sunray

[Mark Crame]

WO1 was Sir, WO2 (in the Infantry) was Colour, Sarn't (never Sarge) Corporal was Corporal and lance Corporal (Full Screw and Lance Jack). Oh, and the Regimental Sargeant Major (Razzman, not in earshot), who was not commissioned, was above the Colonel and second only to God - although he was also scared of the moustachioed steely-eyed baby-eating psycho dwarf. As all of them are. And rightly so.

Howevre, having now made Lieutenant please ignore me as I am neither in the right thread nor the right forum. I am in fact attempting to order my shopping.

[squirrel]

I was always told that RSM's are usuallly called Sir by those below them but not saluted although there seems to be varying views on this. Whether this is due to differing customs in different regiments or during different periods is unclear.

I recently met a gentleman who did his National Service in an Infantry Regiment and was told to address the RSM as "Sir" when in the Holy presence.

He did this when two Miltary Policeman were in earshot and when the RSM had left they put him in the Guard Room for four hours and gave him a lecture about not calling NCO's "Sir". One utterly confused squaddie.

[Muerrisch]

I am confused. In the above, we have missed out a rank: Colour Sergeant. This is above sergeant, and below WO II in modern ranking.

Also, WO of any grade are/were not NCO, but WO.

And, while I am at it, when an officer is on parade, any NCO taking that parade was addressed as 'sir!', vide "Zulu" when CSgt Bourne rebukes a soldier with "Say Sir! Officer on parade!".

[Gunboat]

I have just enquired with a colleague a former CSM in an infantry regiment and he said that he would be addressed as sir and the RSM was to all other ranks sir and to officers and NCOs as Mr (Surname)

He said the differentional was the holding of the Royal Warrant which entitled the bearer to be addressed by lower ranks as sir

[squirrel]

Confusing innit! Differing versions from different regiments.

I once called an RSM Mr.......... and got a close up view of his tonsils and larynx (both very healthy and muscular) and dental work as he briefly explained my mistake and questioned my birth, parentage and masculinity from the regulation 2.75 inches at a huge number of decibels. Funny, but I never made that mistake again.

Was once at the Guards Depot at Pirbright in the Warrant Officers and Senior NCO's mess at lunchtime. Everybody was waiting in the entrance until the Garrison Sergeant Major arrived, placed his cap and silver mounted stick on the display case, bade everybody "Good afternoon" and went in to the dining area. The others all followed him in rank order.

[Mark Crame]

Ah yes, Mister. Aren't officers Mister amongst themsleves? Colour Sergeant / Staff Sergeant is WO2, no? No! ******, just checked (hazy memory) Colour Sergeant is below the WO2.

"The term used to refer to all ranks below officers is Other Ranks (ORs). It includes Warrant Officers, Non-commissioned officers (NCOs) and ordinary soldiers with the rank of Private or equivalent. Officers may, in speaking, distinguish themselves from those "in the ranks"."

I like the 'may in speaking'. Usually you can tell with the way they speak...

Now, a Private can be a Sapper, Gunner, Signaller, Guardsman, Fusilier, Rifleman, Highlander, Air Trooper, Craftsman or Trooper, drummer Trumpeter, Bugler or Piper. A Lance Corporal can be a Lance Bombardier and a load of other stuff. Lance Sergeant was a Corporal acting as a Sergeant (knew a few Corporals who acted like they were the king) but in the footguards are a Corporal - or Lance Corporal of horse were they to be in the Household Cavalry...they were three chevrons and a crown, as does a Colour Serrgeant who is a Staff Sergeant except they are two ranks lower. Corporal of Horse is of course Sergeant, with Staff Corporal being the equivalent of Colour or Staff Sergeant but with 4 stripes (pointing up) and a crown on his cuff, known as Sergeant Major in the Lancers Household Cavalry also have Squadron Corporal Majors and Regimental Corporal Majors.

Is that clear enough?

[Muerrisch]

See me after the lesson.

[Mark Crame]

Sorry, just found my bag of punctuation

..............,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,'''''''''''''''

Apologies for not proofreading first - it was too traumatic the first time.

[Kath]

Steve, I hope you are now really clear on what an N.C.O is.

Kath.

[truthergw]

Can someone please tell me what a 'non commissioned officer' is ? Many thanks , Steve .

An RSM is treated as an Officer except for saluting, since you are saluting the Commission, which he does not have. He is a NON commissioned officer. He is also known as Tara, when he is nowhere near. He may still hear you though, in which case I hope you like scrubbing dixies.

[Mr_Sunray]

I am confused. In the above, we have missed out a rank: Colour Sergeant. This is above sergeant, and below WO II in modern ranking.

Colour Sergeant in the infantry but known as Staff Sergeant for others. Has sergeant stripes with crown.

On the subject of saluting the commision and not the man. Sounds fine in principal, but in practice, and from experience, I wouldn't recommend it.

Also from experience of JIB, Shorncliffe, don't forget to salute that spotty herbert who just walked passed you. He might look younger than yourself (16) but he's a subaltern - Second Lieutenant, he aint no Junior Leader!

Steve

[Steven Broomfield]

Steve, I hope you are now really clear on what an N.C.O is.

Kath.

By now he probably doesn't even care...but if it moves, salute it!

[steve140968]

'Good heavens' , my head hurts !!! So in a roundabout way it means an officer that doesn't have the kings/queens commission . Can i have the ranks in reverse order please !!! Regards Steve .

[Mark Crame]

Should be Regimental Sergeant Major (reality), who is a WO1, first, followed by Commander in Chief (political) then Field Marshall (military). Ask any squaddie and that is correct. BUT, correct reality is.

Nope. I'd better leave this to somebody else I think.

[Mark Crame]

So in a roundabout way it means an officer that doesn't have the kings/queens commission

Umm, no, and Non Commissioned Officer isn't an Officer even though it says he is. It means a soldier who doesn't have the Kings/Queens Commission but holds a rank (L/Cpl included, but see note) above Private and below 2nd Lieutenant (first Commissioned rank). Lance Corporal and equivalent being an appointment, Coporal and above being a rank. Lance Corporal and Corporal are Junior NCO's, Sergeant, Color Sergeant, WO2 and WO1 are Senior NCO's. They run the Army. And it belongs to the RSM.

[jmoha]

Umm, no, and Non Commissioned Officer isn't an Officer even though it says he is. It means a soldier who doesn't have the Kings/Queens Commission but holds a rank (L/Cpl included, but see note) above Private and below 2nd Lieutenant (first Commissioned rank). Lance Corporal and equivalent being an appointment, Coporal and above being a rank. Lance Corporal and Corporal are Junior NCO's, Sergeant, Color Sergeant, WO2 and WO1 are Senior NCO's. They run the Army. And it belongs to the RSM.

If I recall correctly from my Attestation, the phrase the RAF use is "officers and Air officers put over you", I guess this means that Corporal to Warrant Officer are those who have a substansive rank without a commisson falling into the "officer" part and the hoorays who have the nice piece of paper falling into the "Air Officers"part.

As an aside, it seems that the Compass and Map thing is not limited by the service, none of my lot could read one either or navigate their way out of a paper bag

[Barnsey]

Hi All

I thought I'd stir the pot a little more!

Air Force....

I met a Senior Aircraftsman ((SAC) be about a Lance Corporal I think) at a RAF base in Linconshire who was quite the most terrifying variant of Satan I've ever had the pleasure of crossing paths with. He took offence at the carnage my left boot caused to 102 blades of grass (he "asked" me to count them), when I cut a corner. I now dont even mow!

Another incident - This time I was a spectator. At an Army base in Kent. We (the Air Cadets) were on exercise there. All of us done up in camo uniform. A corporal was making his way in an orderly manner and spied a man coming his way with a crown on each shoulder. There followed one of the snappiest salutes I've seen & "Good morning, SIR!". Well... off this Warrant Officer went - about how he actually worked for a living, don't dare call me sir, gave an indepth view of his oppinions of this Cpl & his IQ and stalked away muttering "!#@!*&$ pongoes". There sood a stunned man who thought he would give a Major a bright good morning & a sharp salute. He looked a little confused, obviously never met any fly-boys before.