Woman sniper on Gallipoli

[2ndCMR]

The fact that women MAY be snipers, or that they have been snipers at some times, in some armies, has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether there were women snipers at Gallipoli.... The presence (non-presence) of a woman sniper at Gallipoli is the subject of this discussion, with evidence overwhelmingly against it; it's not an established fact.

Yes, it is all circumstantial, but it does lend some perspective, if not credibility to the story I think. The Turks are quite a martial race, I see nothing surprising about the idea, whatever the documentary evidence or may not be. Franc-tireurs are not generally well-documented. With all due respect, I don't think the comments of a modern Turkish historian are of any more value. We are speaking here about an isolated incident...and perhaps too much at that.

I believe the reference to a Turkish sniper found to have collected ID discs from some or all of his victims was in a book by Ion L. Idriess (sp?) I had the impresion that this sniper was not in the Gallipoli area but somewhere else in the Middle East where warfare was more 'open', but it is years since I read that. Yes, normally such collecting would not be possible or at least easy, but I have read references to sniped enemy being searched in France if they were thought to have useful information or equipment on their persons.

[T8HANTS]

Hi

That a lot of the boys from 163 Brigade firmly believed in the women snipers and were writing home about them and having their letters published within three weeks of their arrival at Suvla, is fact. However nobody ever claimed to have seen one first hand, and no official report of one having been captured has yet come to light. Firmly believed hearsay is not evidence, and I am sure such a novelty if it had been true would have received publicity.

Gareth

[dorrie]

CE Crutchley "Machine Gunner 1914-1918; Personal Experience of The Machine Gun Corps" Pen and Sword Military Classics, makes reference to a machine guneer of the 4th Northants who stated that " an Australian patrol caught a Turkish women sniperwho had the identity discs of several Britis soldiers around her neck" He goes on to say the patrol shot her.

Sorry to add more to the story

Dorrie

[truthergw]

CE Crutchley "Machine Gunner 1914-1918; Personal Experience of The Machine Gun Corps" Pen and Sword Military Classics, makes reference to a machine guneer of the 4th Northants who stated that " an Australian patrol caught a Turkish women sniperwho had the identity discs of several Britis soldiers around her neck" He goes on to say the patrol shot her.

Sorry to add more to the story

Dorrie

Well it's not exactly conclusive proof but it's probably as good as it will ever be. An author refers to an anonymous soldier who got it from an Australian patrol. I can see it now. " What will we do with this female sniper and the discs? Oh just shoot her and lose her body and throw the discs away. We won't mention it in our report when we get back".

[2ndCMR]

Beyond the plain a number of stunted oaks, gradually becoming more dense farther inland, formed excellent cover for the enemy's snipers, a mode of warfare at which the Turk was very adept. Officers and men were continually shot down, not only by rifle fire from advanced posts of the enemy, but by men, and even women, behind our own firing line, especially in the previous attacks. The particular kind of tree in this part, a stunted oak, lends itself to concealment, being short with dense foliage. Here the sniper would lurk, with face painted green, and so well hidden as to defy detection. Others would crouch in the dense brushwood, where anyone passing could be shot with ease. When discovered, these snipers had in their possession enough food and water for a considerable period, as well as an ample supply of ammunition."....

The 1st Battalion Essex advanced well and lost few men. The other battalions, who had delayed, suffered more severely. All we could do was to keep down the fire of the snipers by shooting into the trees. Rumour has it that some of these snipers were tied to trees, with water and food within reach. Women snipers have been caught within our lines with their faces, arms, legs, and rides painted green.

http://user.online.be/~snelders/sand.htm

[truthergw]

...........................

. Rumour has it that some of these snipers were tied to trees, with water and food within reach. Women snipers have been caught within our lines with their faces, arms, legs, and rides painted green.

Is this a specific rumour or just a general one? Does any one know what shade of green? I won't ask what the last bit is meant to mean.

[Joe Sheldon]

Hi All,  My Grandfather Pvt 12898 Arthur Sheldon wrote an account of his time serving with the 7th North Staffs (Service) Regt The dates, times and locations leave a lot to be desired but he mentions an incident near a village named Kuchuck Anaforte.  In his account he is tasked with assisting a Lt Duguid with moving at night close to and behind enemy trenches, laying up during the day and sketching their trench systems and defences. He states that upon returning one night. by accident they discovered that a Turkish sniper was using the wreck of a large hollowed out tree to snipe at the front line. The tree was dead but covered in undergrowth giving it the appearance of being a living tree, this covered the Turks when they entered and left the tree, this position was also well protected from return fire. When they believed the tree was occupied acting under orders the troops in the front line poured down fire on the tree while My Grandfather and Lt Duguid returned and planed an explosive charge in the roots at the base of the tree. They then detonated the explosives and the tree was blown clear of the ground. They were amazed to see the sniper jump to their feet and dazed started running towards the British lines..

They took the sniper prisoner and escorted them to HQ for questioning where they were ordered to strip (standard procedure) The sniper refused and began screaming oaths in Turkish and was as, `Wild as a tiger`. My grandfather states for the first time they realised that the sniper was a female dressed as a male.

She told the interpreter that she had been born and lived on a farm which had been destroyed when, `The Wild Men`, had come and killed several members of her family. She was in possession of 26 discs (British dog tags?)   

The CO ordered her to be shot but apparently later changed his mind and she was sent to Imbros with other prisoners. 

My grandfather survived the war but Lt Duguid was later killed in Mesopotamia.

 

Edited 2 July , 2019 by Joe Sheldon
grammer

[Pat Atkins]

How interesting, thanks for posting. Is there any mention of the incident in the battalion War Diary, do you know? I have to say, I've always been rather sceptical of this subject (while enjoying the informed and informative debate), but - well, you never know I guess.

 

Cheers, Pat

[helpjpl]

44 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

How interesting, thanks for posting. Is there any mention of the incident in the battalion War Diary, do you know? 

 

No mention of a female Turkish sniper in the War Diary which can be viewed on ancestry:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60380/42871_1831101456_11698-00004?pid=24841&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DuhL24%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D60380%26cp%3D0%26_F0007CF4%3DNorth%20Staffordshire%20Regiment%26_F0007CF4_x%3D1%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3Dicz%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D24841%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=uhL24&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=42871_1831101456_11698-00002

 

The legend of the female sniper at Gallipoli:

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse/index.blog/1816016/the-legend-of-the-female-sniper-at-gallipoli/

 

Sniper in a veil?

 

From:  https://www.news.com.au/national/anzac-day/halfnaked-camouflaged-women-snipers-stalked-the-anzacs-at-gallipoli-more-than-a-myth/news-story/3b48ba23d11c737fa89bc8e80af46fa9

 

JP

 

[Pat Atkins]

My great-uncle was sniped and killed at Gallipoli* (a fact I discovered courtesy of the generous help of Pals), so I keep a proprietory eye on the subject! I think that without a WD or other corroboration this probably has to go in the 'unproven' pile. Absolutely no disrespect intended to Joe Sheldon's grandfather, by the way.

 

Pat

 

*while walking in the open, avoiding a flooded trench; he'd survived a month of hard fighting since landing with 2RF on 25th April. If nothing else, the notoriety of having been shot by a female sniper would distract attention from the bathos of his death, I suppose...

[michaeldr]

Lots [15 pages]  of good reading on this subject in another thread

(including the above photograph https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/51480-the-woman-sniper-of-gallipoli/page/13/ post No.314 on page 13 from 2011)

 

 

[Heid the Ba]

On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2007 at 19:27, truthergw said:

Is this a specific rumour or just a general one? Does any one know what shade of green? I won't ask what the last bit is meant to mean.

I appreciate Tom won't see this but I assume "rides" is a typo for "rifles".

 

I'm never very clear on how a sniper would acquire their victim's dog tags (if that is what is meant by "discs"), it seems that goes against the very nature of their craft.

[Joe Sheldon]

Thank you all very much for your comments, my grandfather passed away before I was old enough to know him.

These notes were written in his own handwriting and he records this incident  which he categorically states as being witnessed by himself first hand.

 

Earlier in his notes he states that Lt Duguid was not part of the 7th North Staffs so this incident may not have been recorded in their war diary.

 

It is also possible that she was actually shot,  but my grandfather did not wish to record that as the shooting of a female not only goes against the grain but could even be regarded perhaps as a war crime. Although we all know things like this went on.

 

Of course the final possibility that my grandfather constructed these false notes for a reason known only to himself.  

A man surviving Gallipoli and Mesopotamia and the many actions he was part of makes it difficult to see a motive for the latter. 

I guess we will never know.

Thank you all.

[helpjpl]

4 hours ago, Joe Sheldon said:

Thank you all very much for your comments, my grandfather passed away before I was old enough to know him.

These notes were written in his own handwriting and he records this incident  which he categorically states as being witnessed by himself first hand.

 

Earlier in his notes he states that Lt Duguid was not part of the 7th North Staffs so this incident may not have been recorded in their war diary.

 

It is also possible that she was actually shot,  but my grandfather did not wish to record that as the shooting of a female not only goes against the grain but could even be regarded perhaps as a war crime. Although we all know things like this went on.

 

Of course the final possibility that my grandfather constructed these false notes for a reason known only to himself.  

A man surviving Gallipoli and Mesopotamia and the many actions he was part of makes it difficult to see a motive for the latter. 

I guess we will never know.

Thank you all.

 

This may be of interest - 

James Duguid - Roll of Service, page 27:

https://archive.org/details/rollofserviceing1921univ/page/26

 

JP

 

 

[Joe Sheldon]

helpjpi,

Thank you very much. 

My grandfather states he first met Duguid in the UK before being posted oversees. He was on an animal husbandry course at the time.

This explains why I thought he was not part of the 7th North Staffs. 

I am certain this is the same officer as he was in the RA veterinary corps.

He was also KIA in Mesopotamia as my grandfather states.   

 

[2ndCMR]

On 01/07/2019 at 23:40, Joe Sheldon said:

Hi All,  My Grandfather Pvt 12898 Arthur Sheldon wrote an account of his time serving with the 7th North Staffs (Service) Regt The dates, times and locations leave a lot to be desired but he mentions an incident near a village named Kuchuck Anaforte.  In his account he is tasked with assisting a Lt Duguid with moving at night close to and behind enemy trenches, laying up during the day and sketching their trench systems and defences. He states that upon returning one night. by accident they discovered that a Turkish sniper was using the wreck of a large hollowed out tree to snipe at the front line. The tree was dead but covered in undergrowth giving it the appearance of being a living tree, this covered the Turks when they entered and left the tree, this position was also well protected from return fire. When they believed the tree was occupied acting under orders the troops in the front line poured down fire on the tree while My Grandfather and Lt Duguid returned and planed an explosive charge in the roots at the base of the tree. They then detonated the explosives and the tree was blown clear of the ground. They were amazed to see the sniper jump to their feet and dazed started running towards the British lines..

They took the sniper prisoner and escorted them to HQ for questioning where they were ordered to strip (standard procedure) The sniper refused and began screaming oaths in Turkish and was as, `Wild as a tiger`. My grandfather states for the first time they realised that the sniper was a female dressed as a male.

She told the interpreter that she had been born and lived on a farm which had been destroyed when, `The Wild Men`, had come and killed several members of her family. She was in possession of 26 discs (British dog tags?)   

The CO ordered her to be shot but apparently later changed his mind and she was sent to Imbros with other prisoners. 

My grandfather survived the war but Lt Duguid was later killed in Mesopotamia.

 

On 01/07/2019 at 23:40, Joe Sheldon said:

Posted 2 July

Thank you all very much for your comments, my grandfather passed away before I was old enough to know him.

These notes were written in his own handwriting and he records this incident  which he categorically states as being witnessed by himself first hand.

 

Earlier in his notes he states that Lt Duguid was not part of the 7th North Staffs so this incident may not have been recorded in their war diary.

 

It is also possible that she was actually shot,  but my grandfather did not wish to record that as the shooting of a female not only goes against the grain but could even be regarded perhaps as a war crime. Although we all know things like this went on.

 

Of course the final possibility that my grandfather constructed these false notes for a reason known only to himself.  

A man surviving Gallipoli and Mesopotamia and the many actions he was part of makes it difficult to see a motive for the latter. 

I guess we will never know.

Thank you all.

 

Thank you for contributing that.  It reads very much as though it is the origin of accounts reported elsewhere: in that other thread cited for example.   The curious could investigate the source of those accounts and then the respective locations of the units concerned.

 

Experiences and stories, especially those that would have been as interesting to the hearers as this, travel fast through military formations.  In wartime, with the usual restrictions on information, and the vital urgency of it to one's survival, natural curiosity is greatly accentuated.

 

However, unless your grandfather left photos of an indubitably female Anatolian holding a Mauser rifle between British guards, I doubt the habitual scoffers will be convinced; very few people are willing to publicly admit their mistakes.

 

As for modern Turkish historians, one might as well ask a modern British historian about snipers; all they are likely to know is what they have read from secondary sources, and little enough of that.  Turkey has a very "macho" culture to this day and the idea of women fighting as bravely or more bravely, than many men always makes men a bit uncomfortable, however much they may admire it in some other ways!

Edited 1 November , 2019 by 2ndCMR
missing word